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PREP Athletics Basketball Podcast
PREP Athletics Basketball Podcast
The Making of The Spoils feat. Director Mike Nicoll
▶️Show Notes
In this episode of the PREP Athletics Podcast, director Mike Nicoll discusses his new movie, The Spoils, which peels back the layers of corporate influence to paint an honest, foundational portrait of America’s basketball infrastructure. Nicoll shares his love for basketball and how it has been the focal point of his life. He explains that his filmmaking strategy is to tell stories that he can tell better than anyone else, and he felt that the AAU basketball world was not well understood by most people. Nicoll also discusses his previous film, At All Costs, and how it focused on demonstrating the interconnectivity of the American basketball system. The conversation explores the evolution and growth of the Compton Magic AAU program and the challenges faced by players and their families in the basketball system. It discusses the need for deepening the audience connection with the film 'The Spoils' and the importance of having a North Star in decision-making. The conversation also touches on the role of USA Basketball and the NBA in shaping the future of the game, as well as the changing mindset of parents in the basketball world.
🗒️ About Mike Nicoll:
Recognized as an innovative filmmaker, Mike Nicoll is an award-winning director known for his work on "At All Costs," a documentary about AAU basketball acquired by Netflix in 2017 and described by the LA Times as "a modern-day Hoop Dreams." Following its success, Mike expanded the concept into a docu-series, "Lynchpin: Inside the Business of Basketball," and a feature film, "The Spoils: Selling the Future of American Basketball," set to premiere in June 2024 on Jolt.Film. With a B.A. from the University of Michigan and an M.F.A from USC's School of Cinematic Arts, Mike has produced impactful projects for major clients including Nike, Netflix, and Facebook, and generated over 30 million views across various platforms.
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#TheSpoils #AAUBasketball #MikeNicoll #DocumentaryFilmmaking #BasketballDocumentary #NBAandAmateurism #AmericanBasketball #ComptonMagic #USABasketball #BasketballSystem #YouthBasketball #FilmMaking #SportsDocumentary #BasketballCulture
🔗 Connect with Mike:
Website | https://thespoilsmovie.com/
Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/thespoilsfilm/
LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-nicoll/
Twitter | https://twitter.com/mike
🔗 Connect with Cory:
Website | https://www.prepathletics.com
Twitter | https://twitter.com/PREP_Athletics
Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/prep.athletics/
Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/PrepAthletics
Email | coryheitz@gmail.com
Phone | 859-317-1166
🔖 Subscribe to the PREP Athletics Podcast:
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Amazon | https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/3c37179d-3371-47f9-9d97-fd569e8802a7/prep-athletics-basketball-podcast #AmazonMusic
Cory Heitz (00:00)
Welcome to this week's episode of the PREP Athletics Podcast. I'm proud to have director Mike Nicoll on and Mike has just directed and is releasing a movie called The Spoils, which is about NIL, AAU, the pro, the college landscape, and he embedded with the Compton Magic for 11 years and followed their process through, you know, this kind of thing being illegal to now being legal to now the implications of the NBA with amateurism.
all this stuff. It's a lot to talk about, but Mike is from the LA area, played ball with Trevor Ariza growing up and did a heck of a job in this movie. It's got a lot of big time names in it and he explains a lot more about that and about kind of what he sees in this world in this podcast. So it's a good one. It's a different one and I hope you enjoy it. So thanks for tuning in. Take care.
Cory (01:14)
Mike, welcome to the podcast.
Mike Nicoll (01:16)
Cory, it's great to be here, man. I'm excited to chop it up with you.
Cory (01:19)
Yeah, now you're a documentary, a movie maker, filmmaker, director who's been in the basketball arena with a couple of films so far. And I want to start out by asking you, where did this love of basketball come from?
Mike Nicoll (01:31)
I mean, it has been the focal point of my life, really. I've spent my entire life traveling through the American basketball system. You know, from playing at AAU from when I started 7, 8 in Los Angeles. I played at AAU with a couple of my best friends growing up, ended up winning NBA championships. Trevor Ariza and Gabe Pruitt. It was so surreal. Trevor started next to Kobe on a Laker championship team.
So yeah, I mean, just as a player in AAU, high school, college, and then, you know, when I got out of USC film school, the question that faces every filmmaker is, what is your first film gonna be? And I feel like my filmmaking strategy has always been, what stories can I tell better than anyone else? And obviously a foundational piece of that is having something to say. And so...
I always felt like the AAU basketball world was obviously an integral part of the larger system, but really not very well understood by most people that aren't deep in it. And so, yeah, that was At All Costs. That was my first film that Netflix acquired, but there was always a lot more meat on the bone, and we can get into this. But a lot of that was like 101 downloading. I'm very proud of that film, but this story, The Spoils, is the movie I always wanted to make.
It was sort of an all roads leading to this and I don't think, you know, I'm the director so of course it's my job to believe in what we've made but I think it's as robust and complete a testimony on the way that the American basketball system functions as has ever been put on film. And so we're just like so proud of this movie and I think it has important things to say about the game.
Cory (03:18)
Yeah, I think it's a nice companion piece to At All Costs, but talk to me first about At All Costs. Like give those listing kind of an overview of what that's about and why you wanted to make that film.
Mike Nicoll (03:28)
Yeah, so at all costs, you know, going back to what the sort of core thesis of my work has been, you know, there are a few, but I think I really wanted to demonstrate how interconnected the American basketball system is, right? Like, obviously the NBA is the Holy Grail, you know, it sits at the top of the mountain, but people like to look at college basketball, the NBA, AAU as these separate entities, right?
when the reality is that they are all enmeshed overlapping pieces like Lego pieces of the same system. So with At All Costs, I wanted to demonstrate that interconnectivity. At that time also, you know, that's changed since then, but you know, a lot of the things that are now legal were illegal then for sure. But I wanted to, you know, another core thesis was always like back at that time, the big question was should college athletes get paid?
And my position, having traveled through this world my entire life, was always like, the quote unquote professional party is over so long before these guys step foot on a college campus. And so the professionalization of this world really starts at the grassroots level in very profound ways. So it was demonstrating that interconnectivity. It was like making that point, like these guys are pros by almost any reasonable metric. But you know, as far as the
difference between them. You know, with At All Costs again, you know, when you tell people and tell me what you think about this, but when you tell people or ask people about AAU basketball, you say, do you know what it is? Or can tell me something about it. Most people have this like kind of arms length, just like vague, like, that's that like shadowy shady thing. But like they kind of know what it is, but like have no clue at the same time. So there was a lot of like downloading we had to do and I wanted to tell a really 360 degree story.
So that meant casting players on both sides of the fence, which at the time was primarily Nike and Adidas. So I wanted to tell the player story, the family story, and then the program story. So from a casting standpoint, we wanted to hit all of those entities. And the player story, I was talking about this with a friend the other day, sports documentaries, sports films over the last 40, 50 years have gotten really compressed into these tight
cliche storytelling like boxes, you know, it's like, did he make the team? Did they win the championship? What did they learn? Did he get the scholarship? Right? And like almost every basketball documentary has notes of that. And I'm so proud of At All Costs. It'll always be my first film. But, you know, I felt that movie getting sort of like sucked into some of that stuff. And the reality is I've always been much more fascinated with the adults in the room.
Cory (06:22)
Hmm
Mike Nicoll (06:23)
Because as a filmmaker, my central focus is like system dynamics and how does like the operational mechanics of this behemoth actually function. And at the end of the day, it's the adults that are pulling these strings and the business, you know, you talk, I talk about these things. I think the final evolution of our thesis with The Spoils is the business has become the game. And so like I love At All Costs, but you know, we wanted to hit the players, the families, the programs.
Cory (06:45)
Yeah.
Mike Nicoll (06:52)
but I was always interested much more in like the system dynamics. So I love the film. I think it's a really valuable entry into the genre. But to me, I always wanted to really provide value to our film. And so like, this is to me, The Spoils is like the navigational blueprint for families, players, hundreds of thousands of them all over the world that are entering this American basketball scene with frankly no clue how to navigate it. So that's a lot of words, but.
Yeah, they definitely go together. But The Spoils was the movie that I always had my eye on and wanted to make.
Cory (07:30)
Yeah, well, here's what I like and my two cents on that. I think there's a common belief among parents that, Hey, if I play AAU, I'll get placed in college. Right. And in the prep school world, obviously the prep school coaches place players is one of the benefits of going to prep school. High school coaches now don't really do that. They never really have. They maybe did in the old days, but AAU seems like, Hey, that's the place we'll go to get seen. And the example I give to families is I went to Anaheim to the sports complex out there seven years ago and there were 24 courts.
And games going on all day at all 24 courts and college coaches read the main three. Right? So those kids from Mississippi and Montana playing in court 23 and 24 and spending thousands of hard earned dollars on those trips. No one's watching them play. Right? So the cool thing about your documentary is you're letting people know about NIL, about the new power structures kind of behind the scenes, but really it's about the 1 % of players are going to be getting those kinds of deals. The other 99 %
What the heck are they going to do? And that's where, you know, I've been on my soapbox saying this for years. They need an advocate, right? Or they need, they need that. So what do you say about that?
Mike Nicoll (08:37)
Well, you know it's funny, right? So you asked me about At All Costs before. You know, obviously in filmmaking, casting is critically important, especially in documentaries. I would actually argue in documentary films, casting is even more important than in scripted shows. But you know, what I heard, and first of all, when you cast, you never know where players are gonna end up, right? And the trajectory they'll be on, right? But you know, one of the, I don't wanna say knocks, but one of the...
Cory (08:58)
That's right.
Mike Nicoll (09:03)
pieces of feedback we got on At All Costs were that our two main players Gabe York and Parker Cartwright they were you know top fifty guys but you know did not ultimately you know they were they were were college players and I love them both dearly but it was like no this this isn't the blue these are blue chip guys these are the real guys right and the The Spoils that's definitely not the case I mean we're talking about
you know, Evan Mobley and Onyeka Okongwu, I mean, there were five NBA players in the starting lineup with the Compton Magic team that we were embedded with. So like that sort of blue chip, you know, and so, and it's funny now on this side of it, it's like, there's sort of this conversation where it's like, well, that's what it looks like for the cream of the crop guys. But to your point, there's this other 98, 99 % of the players and like, where do they get left into this mix, right?
So when I say going back again to the system, talking to parents as an advocate, I think it's really important to understand what the system is optimized for currently and then understanding what you want out of it, which is an easy thing to say, but I think that without a real honest understanding of the dynamics at play, it's impossible to sketch that plan out. So like you were talking about, I think a lot of families want a scholarship. Cool. But.
the wrong scholarship for you, right? Like if you look at the transfer rates, if you look at, you know, and listen, I'm not here to knock on free education. Like I get it. Like it's expensive, you know, so there's the business side of all of this, but going back to the need for an understanding of how it works and then surrounding yourself with the right network. If you, I always like to say like, you're not gonna hit a target that you're not aiming at. And if you aren't extraordinarily intentional about what your priority is, the system has a way of deciding for you.
So, you know, we could, there's a lot to unravel there, but yeah, I, you know, in an ironic twist, you know, we were fortunate enough to be covering, you know, the best players in the country, Mikey Williams, Evan, you know, Koa Peat. Now we've covered generations of players with the Compton Magic, Koa's number two recruit in the 25th class. But I think where the third act ultimately lands is more about what I have to say because I've ironically,
and much more interested from a value proposition standpoint and sketching out something useful for everyone else because you know as useful as somebody like Tope or the company magic is for a guy like Evan Mobley.
He's probably gonna land where he lands regardless, but it is more of those intermediate, you know, everyone else that needs the right counsel, that needs the right network, the right advocates, the right education, the right game plan, because that's where on the margins it matters more. So I think, you know, I'd love to, you know, I don't wanna kind of like keep dragging it into that direction, but I think you're absolutely right. And I think that our film is just as valuable for the...
98 % as it may be more than for the top cream of the crop guys because in some ways they recruit themselves, you know
Cory (12:19)
They sure do. Yeah. But tell me this, in your 10 years, and this might have evolved over the 10 year period you filmed this, was education ever mentioned in these conversations very much?
Mike Nicoll (12:30)
No. No. And I think that's, you know, I would love to, you know, again, I'm happy to, our film covers so much ground, so like we could go in any direction, but I think that I have real concerns about the way the system is currently designed and what it means, and what it means for generations of players, and also the soul and spirit of the game, right? Which is talk about something that never gets discussed.
Cory (12:31)
Yes.
Tell me about that.
Mike Nicoll (12:57)
That is a conversational topic that has no seat at the table, which is something I hope our film will maybe center a little bit more. But you know, you're talking about, when you talk about the impact of the AAU system on the American basketball landscape, one of the insiders in our film, Doug Gottlieb on Fox Sports says, you know, makes a great point that I love, and it's like, AAU basketball players, or really any basketball player.
They carry with them what they've done the most from a philosophical standpoint, from an approach to the game standpoint. So when you talk about a system that is what we use to filter out who matriculates up through the levels, whatever the goals are, college, scholarship, NBA, whatever, you're talking about a system that almost every single one of our players, because as you said, this is a mandatory space to be seen, recruited, and ultimately escalated. You're talking about probably entering that system around seven or eight years old.
I mean, I was, but let's call it eight or nine, and then let's call it through the end of high school. So we're talking about a 10 -year chunk of time.
The philosophy, the ethos, the mindset, the approach, like this is the most impressionable time in a young person's life. And the way and the system's values are getting baked into them, right? Like I almost like to think about some of this stuff as like a language or a protocol, right? Like if I said to you, Cory, like, hey man, I'm gonna need you to go learn Portuguese tomorrow. And we're gonna do our next pod in Portuguese.
You'd be like, well, I don't, you know, Rosetta Stone, whatever, like I'm an adult, like a new language, no. But they always say like new languages are so much easier for children to use because their brains are so much more pliable and like the plasticity, et cetera, right? So from a protocol language standpoint, I think that there are some real concerns about the way the system is like designed because number one, I think it really encourages a single dimension identity, which is more of like a psychology sort of like human development direction we could go, but.
I think that the system really fosters the idea that you only have value as a basketball player, which is a way of, you asked about the education, like no, there's no talk about education. And that single dimension identity then gets dragged into all of these other priorities that are layered on top of that. And my fundamental concern about where American basketball is going is that we're now going on a second or third generation, depending on how you calculate it, of...
Generations of players that are identifying whether it's social media following, whether it's brand building, whether it's now NIL deals, whether it's this visibility or who can do the most for me. These are all things that I would say are not the main thing. And the main thing is the game, their development, what their goals are.
Cory (15:56)
Thank you.
Mike Nicoll (16:00)
And I really am a subscriber to the idea that there can only be one main thing. You know, going back to you're not going to hit a target that you're not aiming at. So education, almost non -existent, you know, because it's not within the incentive structure of the people who bankroll the system, right? It's the shoe companies, for the most part, that fund this, and they have no incentive to educate these kids. So.
Cory (16:20)
Right.
Mike Nicoll (16:28)
Yeah, and I think all of that stuff should be an important part of any sort of reimagination of this system. And before I sort of turn it back to you, I'll just say one of the things that bothers me the most is there's just this inertia and momentum around the conversation around what American basketball development is. And what I mean by that is, well, it is this way, so that's somehow maybe the way it's supposed to be.
There's this blind acceptance of the way we do things because that's the way it is. So of course that's the natural order of things. And I just flatly reject that. And I don't think it's beyond the pale to suggest that some of these other things have a voice and seat at the table. And when we talk about designing an American basketball system that works for the players, the family, the game, I don't know, these crazy old fashioned ideas, you know, but...
Cory (17:27)
You mentioned Soul of the Game. What comes to my mind is, you know, I'm from Kentucky, so we follow the Wildcats every year. And it took till February to know who these guys were because they were one and done, so they were transfers and then they're gone the next year. So obviously no one likes that. But the benefit of this whole transfer portal and NIL thing is now we've got college big men like Hunter Dickinson, Drew Timmy, Zach Edey sticking around longer. And they're getting paid more than they would in the pros and people are getting to follow them, know more about them and they're getting to
You know, the opportunity to capitalize on that too. So there's a little bit of a pro and con with that as well, but you're right, man. The soul is gone. But you know, one player you got to follow was Mikey Williams, right? And that kid, you know, had a lot of social media followers early and you know, had the first shoe deal with Puma early. And then obviously ended in tragedy with, you know, what happened with him and the law. Talk to me about that. Cause he's kind of the first and you got to see him up close. Like, was it a good thing he did this or was it a bad thing for his psyche?
Mike Nicoll (18:25)
Well, I'm pretty mindful of not. I don't want to speak for Mikey or his family.
Cory (18:34)
I want your opinion since you were there as an outsider. I'm not telling you to shame him or anything, it's just like you saw this... this phenom.
Mike Nicoll (18:35)
Sure, sure. No, no, no. So I think again, right? So like I'm gonna, I promise I'll circle back to a more micro answer to your question. But you know, when you talk about the professionalization of this world, I think that, you know, we don't, what else? We'll talk about, and then like, you know, also like the inertia or momentum around like the way it is and like, well, that's aw shucks. That's just the way it's supposed to be. Another thing that gets talked about not that much, it's just sort of like,
Cory (18:46)
Okay.
Mike Nicoll (19:05)
the air we breathe now, is the sort of media apparatus that has grown up around grassroots basketball, right? What I sort of like to call the ball is life -ification of this world. And when you talk about the sort of impact or legacy of mixed tape culture, you know, again, I would say that you could point to manifestations of this almost at every level in every corner of the game, but like people are not really that interested in the game.
They're just in the highlight tapes, the mix tapes, the dunks, the social media clips. And then you can see that in the ratings. You can see that in lots of spaces. But when you have these companies like Ball is Life, Overtime, et cetera, who sort of business model is predicated on amplifying the public profile of these young stars and then building up their brand and following on the back of the ...
interest that their peers have, right? Because who's watching these 12, you must know now, I mean, there's like mixed tapes of 10 year olds, eight year olds. But like, I'm not watching those, but they get millions of views and it's because the other kids are watching them, right? And I think that one of the things the shoe companies specifically have always been really savvy about understanding is that as much as a kid looks at Kobe or LeBron or Steph,
and says, I want to be like him. I think that these, and we talk about this, Ethan talks about this in the film, but the shoe companies have always been really savvy about understanding that they are already very powerful salesmen within their own communities at 12, 13, 14, because as much as the kids look at Kobe and LeBron and say, I want to be like them, they go to school with guys like Mikey or guys like, you know, the big guys they watch their, it's like, I know I actually really want to be like him.
So when you, you know, obviously Mikey started out playing next to Bronnie and like being in LeBron's orbit is its own gravitational force. But, you know, there's just a level of professional scrutiny on these children.
that
I think requires some further deeper thought. And again, going back to the incentives around the way the system's built, it's like, well, if we're gonna talk about how this should change, who's gonna change it? And that's why I feel like our film is so important and why the work that you do, frankly, is so important because it has to take place on the player and family level because these big shoe companies aren't gonna do it. They exist to make money. They exist to sell shoes. The NCAA is there to...
Cory (21:34)
Yeah.
Mike Nicoll (21:48)
cash their March Madness checks. Like, you know, at every level, right, the system is designed to attach itself to the talent and with no regard for really like how old the talent is, what's best for, you know, so what's best for them. And like, that's why it has to start at the family level with an awareness, with an education, with an intentionality around what we want. And so, yeah, I mean, Mikey, I'd like to think that his story isn't done.
But being around him, I got a sense of how big his world was. And again, I'm not here to ever say that these kids shouldn't get paid, or X, Y, or Z, or the attention, but.
You want to make sure that that's happening on purpose and not accidentally. You know what I mean? You want to be active in constructing the life for your family. So if that's what they were shooting for, they hit the target. If it wasn't, then I don't know. You'd have to ask them.
Cory (22:51)
Well, let me ask.
All right, let me put you, let's do a hypothetical situation here. You have a generational talent for a son, right? Let's just, you know, he's a phenom and everyone knows this in seventh grade and you know more than most people now with your behind the scenes access, stuff that you know about that wasn't even in the film. How do you carve this out for your son moving forward?
Mike Nicoll (23:17)
This is a great question, right? And especially, and again, I hate to keep hitting the same note, but like, when we talk about the cultural conversation around where this world is, most of what I hear, tell me, I would love to know what you think, most of what I hear is, it's long overdue, get the bag, this game is a business, right? Like, it's this sort of like blind celebrating of all the new financial, you know, windfall, et cetera. And I'm not here to say that that's not, not,
you know, worth pursuing inside of the right balance. What I will say is that all of those same people who I find to be mostly virtue signaling, when you put that exact question that you just put to me to them, their opinion and position changes instantly because philosophically people are in favor of this because it is long overdue and the system has been built for 70 years on the back of exploiting these kids like
Our film lays that out very explicitly. However, whether where we've landed right now is a healthy or good place is an entirely different conversation and the rubber hits the road when it's your kid. So I think that, you know, for me, what I would say is number one, first and foremost, do you love this game? And I can connect this to my own life, right? In the filmmaking world, especially having grown up in Los Angeles.
everybody wants to be a filmmaker. Everyone's got an idea, everyone wants to be a producer, everyone, you know, it's like, right. I'm now going into my second decade of doing this and I see people fall away from it because what I see is that these people want to be seen as these things, but not actually do the work and do the things necessary to...
take whatever's inside of them and put it up on the screen, right? So I talk about the difference between wanting to be seen as something versus genuinely, natively wanting to be that and needing to be that. So I think that for my own son, I would be laser focused on, do you love this game? And that's the question, really, because everything that flows out after that is informed by his answer to that question.
And then it's like, okay, well, if you do, we're gonna develop your game because that's, if you're telling me, son, that's what you care the most about, we're gonna go hard after that. And that may mean turning down some opportunities. That may mean pushing some things to the back burner. But I think that like, there's, you know, I said there can only be one main thing and more and more, there are just so many things competing for that top priority in a kid's life.
And that is what I would be safeguarding with some ferocity. Because even on the existential side, it's like...
The things this game taught me still serve me so well at 38. They'll serve me well at 48. They'll serve me well at 58. And really, underneath all of that, and Cory, I'd love to, I think, tell me what you think of this, but like, you know, I know we're getting deep here, but I think maybe one of the greatest lessons any human being can learn in life is that it's not about you.
Some people go their whole lives and never really arrive at that recognition because they just live in this bubble where like, I am the center and it's all about me and what I want and my fears and my desires and my anxieties and my needs. That's not what life is. And being a part of something bigger and greater than yourself is one of the most rewarding and fulfilling things that
that I think feeds a human being's progress and success forever. Whether that's being the role you play in your family, your community, your job, whatever your job ends up being. And so that's one of the things I really worry about is just the way that the American basketball system has individualized this beautiful team game. And so, yeah, there's a lot, all that stuff is what I'd want to instill in my son no matter how great he is.
Because it's the ultimate, even in self -interested sense, I actually do believe that you will get further by buying into the team concept and buying into the idea that this is not about me. If it's about you, go play golf, go play tennis.
Cory (27:49)
That's easier said than done though with everything being so transactional nowadays. I mean, with the transfer portal with AAU and having 12 new teammates every year and everyone leaving, man, that's a high goal to achieve nowadays, right? And you see it in certain programs. Like I know from one point, Yale didn't have any transfers for I think ever in that coaching history. And to me, I would put that on neon lights and be like, you know,
Mike Nicoll (27:53)
It is.
Cory (28:14)
Yeah, you might want to go to a bigger program, make NIL money, but we're Yale and look at the culture we've got here. Look at the family we've got here. And to me now that's almost a bigger recruiting thing than NIL deals and whatnot. It's like, who transfers out of here? What kind of culture do we have?
Mike Nicoll (28:31)
Yeah. Well, I think think going to be also there already are, but there will continue to be a much larger data picture that paints sort of like consequences. You know, the last chapter in our film, we have the film is divided into eight chapters that the eighth chapter is called the consequences of achievement. You know, obviously there's been a lot of progress made on the financial side for players, but it doesn't. I would argue it hasn't.
come without some consequences. And I think that whether it's transfer rates, whether it's any other number of ways we could look at quantifying whether these
Self -interested decisions at every point of the way have ultimately landed a player in the destination they wanted to go. Remains to be seen. We talked about it before. Scholarships are great, but the right scholarship for you is more important. And so there's a lot of ways that identifying what the right scholarship for you can get conflated with that doesn't matter.
Cory (29:42)
How does a kid find the right scholarship for him? Is it his family figuring it out? Is it the AU coach knowing the system? Is it doing due diligence? Is it the money you can get? What's your answer to that?
Mike Nicoll (29:51)
I think it's building a network around the player, the family that is built on rigorous honesty. There's a lot of false promises that get sold in this world by almost every adult of every category, whether it's college coaches, you know, like name it. But I think that not only having people around you that are going to tell you the truth about you, but also being honest with yourself is a really hard thing to do.
And that's not the same as not having ambition. It's not. But again, kind of going back to what I was talking about, like do I really want to go, do I need to be seen on the Arizona roster? Or do I want to go get 28 minutes a night at Nevada? But you know, when I sign with Arizona, they're going to put it on Instagram and I'll get to retweet that.
Cory (30:41)
Yeah.
Mike Nicoll (30:48)
That card and all my friends will think what they think. Meanwhile, fast forward 18 months, you're not getting any run and your options at that point are dramatically different than they were. So again, that rigorous honesty with yourself, inside the family, and then with the people that you're leaning on, I would say it's pretty paramount.
Cory (31:14)
And Mike, what you're mentioning there, that's happened throughout history, right? Going higher than you think. I mean, it was for me too. Like I chose D1. I wasn't really, I was barely a D1 player. I wanted to be D1. I was a D1 or bust kid back in the nineties. so I did it, but you know, I just found this, I was at home for July 4th and I found the little three sentence blurb and the Lexington Herald leader that said, Cory Heitz is committed to the Naval Academy to play basketball, which ended up not happening at the end of the day, but like,
Mike Nicoll (31:18)
Totally.
Cory (31:42)
That was my social media announcement was in the paper in the Friday high school roundup section. And people around town are like, Hey, we saw you saw you in the paper on Friday. Cause that was our social media back then. But now I wonder if kids do kids do that now just for the graphic, just for all the likes that one day. Cause the next day, like it's kind of forgotten about and everyone goes back to business.
Mike Nicoll (31:52)
Yeah!
Well, I want to forgive me and I hope your audience is cool traveling a little bit more of an existential road in this conversation. Well, no, I think that, you know, going back to the love of the game part, but like deeper than that, I think that one of the pitfalls for most humans is what I call the sort of myth of arrival.
Cory (32:07)
They are. I am and that's what matters. So yeah, go for it.
Interesting.
Mike Nicoll (32:28)
And it's this idea that like, well, when this happens, I will have arrived. When I get the scholarship, when I get the job, when I get her, you know, whether it's a relationship, whether it's a professional achievement, whether it's a, then I will have arrived. Then I will be complete. Then I will have shown, you know, in a more colloquial parlance, then the haters will know, you know, and I'll have shown everybody and I'll be the man now.
Cory (32:34)
Now you're going.
Mike Nicoll (32:57)
I can only speak for myself, I've had lots of those moments in my life. It's a myth. Because... I don't want to say you have to get up the next day and do it again, but if you've chosen the right thing that matters to you, you get to wake up the next day and do it again. And the idea that we ever fully arrive or are complete is just... It's a hollow idea. And so when it comes to all this social media stuff, it's like...
Even if every single one of your friends sees it and likes it, I guarantee you they've forgotten about it 15 minutes later. Because they're obsessed with themselves and their life and their fears and their hopes. So like, again, I know it's hokey, but like the journey, the process, the like, why are you doing this? You know, in my world, I get asked all the time if people should go to film school or become like, what's it like? You know, and I always say, if you could see yourself being happy doing anything else.
Cory (33:33)
That's right.
Mike Nicoll (33:55)
Go do that. Because this career will body you into a corner where you get told no a lot, which is, there's a lot of parallels between the basketball world. And if you don't really love this and need to do it on a soulful level, you'd probably be happier doing some other shit. And similarly with basketball, basketball's hard, man. There's millions of kids that play this game, and some of them really want it.
And if you're not, if that hunger and that drive isn't there and that love that's gonna sustain you, is it woven into who you are? I mean, you know, not to gas myself up, but like we shot this film over 11 years. If I didn't have an abiding love of this world and felt like what this movie had to say was important, seeing it through was, you know, I had lots of opportunities to not, you know, elevate it to where it -
to what it's become and I'm not trying to brag about anything, I'm just saying as an example. And even now, I'm so, I'm endlessly proud of this movie, but to tie it back, when At All Costs came out, I thought, now I've arrived. Now everyone in Hollywood is gonna be knocking on my door, dropping scripts on my desk, dropping, you know, now I got it. And if you talk to the most successful people in the world, I mean, like, it's never that way. And so...
For me, it's really right now about deepening the audience connection with our film, integrating it into the culture, but there's still more work, more miles in front.
Cory (35:36)
I love you saying journey not the destination. I mean, it's easier now at our age to be saying stuff like that, but if you're 16, 17, 18, it's tougher, right? It takes time. No one gets that overnight except very rare cases. But tell me about this, since you were with the Compton Magic for 11 years, obviously one of the most storied AAU programs in history, and you're with their founder, Etop, from start to finish, right? What evolution and growth did you see in him throughout these years that you thought were pretty interesting?
Mike Nicoll (35:44)
It is.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I mean a lot of it is in the movie, for sure. And we try to do, I think that there's some really subtle visual storytelling in the film that I encourage everyone to check out. I got it. It's thespoilsmovie .com if you didn't know. Yeah, link to all of it. It's the thespoilsmovie .com is where you can find all this stuff. When it comes to Tope, I just have immense respect for what he's built.
Cory (36:18)
We'll link to all that. Yes.
Mike Nicoll (36:31)
What I will say is, you know, the time that we spent covering them, when I met Etop they were a good program, but I wouldn't say that they weren't yet where they were going. And you know, he talks about this in the film, but you know, as you sort of escalate, or you know, the program starts to have some success.
you know, the stakeholders in his world start to exert more influence on what the priorities of the program are going to be. And so, you know, I would just quote him and say, you know, as we have had more success, you have to start getting the better and better kids because that's what the shoe companies dictate. That all said though, I will say that, you know, Tope's mission statement has always been to get as much, the way he says it is, to put millions of dollars of scholarships in the hood.
Cory (37:25)
Yeah.
Mike Nicoll (37:26)
and to get as much, you know, provide as much scholarship money for, you know, his players as possible. And I think Etop I always describe Etop as like one of the more powerful people in this ecosystem that the average person probably hasn't heard of. But in many, many ways, he, you know, you you about an advocate, you know, what Etop does doesn't really fit neatly on a business card. There are a few ways I try to describe him succinctly, you know.
I've described him as a dream facilitator. But also he's kind of like their agent before they can have an agent.
So, you know, again, he talks about it a lot in the movie, but this entire world is one gigantic relationship building space. And again, just quoting him, he talks about like when you're in an all out war to get stuff done, your grasp is going to be so far as your experience. And there's not many people in this world that have as deep a relationships and are plugged into every corner of the world as he is. And if anything, it was just I always saw something in him.
Cory (38:22)
Yep.
Mike Nicoll (38:34)
but it was rewarding for me to see that manifested and elevated the longer we were with him. Because he is a pretty remarkable dude. But you know, the pressures of the system are the pressures of the system.
Cory (38:54)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's nuts. Now, let me ask you this. You've seen this for 11 years. You've seen it change. What's this going to look like in five years, do you think?
Mike Nicoll (39:03)
That is great, great question.
Well, I've been probably talking a little bit more. I'm really interested in your, and I will, I'm not copping out, but if I could give you a magic wand as somebody whose livelihood is based in this world and you could wave it and make one change to the American basketball system at any level, what would it be?
Cory (39:24)
Yeah, I've thought about this. I think from, this is not me being original. I think this is what I've heard from other people. I think you've got to put the one year sit out period back in. And I know it goes against the free market. I know coaches can do it, but I think it would slow things down and make people take a second chance on just transferring when the first sign of adversity comes. Money I'm cool with, right? These, the NCAA and colleges are getting paid. I don't see why these kids shouldn't get paid.
Mike Nicoll (39:50)
Mm -hmm.
Cory (39:53)
it's the instant transfer that I think has taken that soul away from the game that you mentioned earlier. So that would be my fix, but I think also the tea leaves are into that. Like these major conferences are going to potentially break away seeing how the positioning has been happening of these the past 12 months. that's what I'm hearing through my, my sources as well. And then that's another conversation, but I'd say, I don't like doing it because you're taking away kids freedom, but I think that's how you fix the game.
Mike Nicoll (40:24)
Yeah, so let me ask you this. Do you think that...
I would say that one of the reasons that the system is in the shape it's in is from a absence of leadership, right? Like AAU, the sort of incubative space, does exist in this leadership vacuum. Do you think that, would you like to see any broader entity exert more of a downstream leadership role? Whether that's, you know, I always kind of identify USA Basketball as conceivably, you know, because if you look at the players at the table.
You know, you're talking about the shoe companies, you're talking about the NCAA, you're talking about the broadcast partners, which LOL. You're talking about, you know, the NBA. And then like there's USA Basketball, which I think is maybe in the best position to exercise more leadership around what the downstream process is. I don't know what their will or interest or ability would be doing that.
Cory (41:15)
Maybe.
Mike Nicoll (41:28)
But...
What does it look like in five years?
Cory (41:35)
Not an easy question, Mike, and there's no crystal balls, so we're just spitballing here.
Mike Nicoll (41:37)
No, I think, you know, so again, going back to the film, we connect a lot of really big dots across a large constellation, but, you know, taking it back to Michael Jordan, there were some examples before MJ in terms of like the intersection of a person and a brand, you know, like Arthur Ashe before him a little bit. But like certainly when you talk about a personal brand, Michael Jordan is the Everest of what that is. But you look at,
If you just just around, and this is true in every industry, it's not just the basketball world, but everyone, that merging of a human and their brand and what they stand for, I don't see that dissipating. Again, one of the things our film says is that the boundaries between these levels are as thin and dissolving as ever. If the NBA is going to stick to their one and done rule or their age limit, which I think they just put into the new CBA, so that doesn't seem like it's going to change.
You know, I think the NCAA has some real, real identity issues to figure out in terms of like what they are and what they want to be because as Todd Ramizar, one of the agents in our film says, we're in the age of options, right? Players want the most options possible. So if I had to like look into my crystal ball, I would honestly say it's going to continue to fracture and splinter into more smaller niches.
And I don't know if that's good for the game or not, but I don't see...
I don't see any kind of cohesion on the horizon, that's for sure. And ultimately...
you know, unless our film is able to miraculously change the course of this conversation, which I would love for it to do. Cory, this is America. So going back to our chapter headings, chapter seven is the money always wins. So the money, I don't see any reason why the money's not going to continue winning and the shape that that takes, we'll have to see. But, you know, the collectives we talk about.
Cory (43:34)
Yeah.
Mike Nicoll (43:47)
talk to in the film say, you know, a player can be understood to be a professional the moment they present value to a brand or an organization.
and Books talks about it in the movie like there is no bottom so you know i don't i think more leagues at every level more big companies and adults trying to get attached to these famous or branded young play like i think it's all on the table and i think wherever the the investment goes wherever the money is living i think that's the direction the games get up
Cory (44:22)
All right, well, let me flip that question back around on you and say, you're the king of basketball. How do you fix it? Do you put USA basketball in charge? If what you want to happen happens, what do you do?
Mike Nicoll (44:32)
I would love, I would love, well, so like this is a good opportunity for us to talk about the way they do it in other countries, right? So, you know, some mixture of an academy system that, you know, I don't see, like if you look at in Europe, like Real Madrid has, you know, Luka's been a legit pipeline professional since he was 13 or 14 years old. I would like to see those kinds of options available, right?
Like going back to that single dimension identity thing, if that's what you want to focus on, you should obviously be able to do that. If at 12 or 13 you want to commit your life to being the best, most professional basketball player you can be, then go after that. Right now we have a lot of like accidental opportunities for that or sort of like half measured opportunities for that.
Cory (45:09)
yeah.
Mike Nicoll (45:28)
But like, I would love to see like the Lakers having like a developmental, like the NBA franchise is having a developmental pipeline. I would love to see USA basketball and the NBA partnering on, you know, I mean, like look at the, I was on Fox Sports the other day and Chris Broussard was saying, you know, and I agree. It's like the last five, six MVPs have all been foreign born players. Are we producing the best players anymore?
I think that's an open question. So even from like a self -preservation standpoint for American basketball, like who's the next face of this game going to be here? Right? And that's not to say that I don't, you know, of course, Giannis and Jokic and, you know, they're all great. I love them. I don't have a problem with it. But from an American basketball point of view, you know, some kind of joint partnership with the NBA and USA basketball would be, I would love to see. I think Adam's a great leader. And I think that if he
Cory (46:16)
Mm -hmm.
Mike Nicoll (46:25)
made it a priority. He probably has the most power to do it. But I think that the, I think USA Basketball, maybe the same way that they like tap Coach K or Jerry Colangelo or whatever, in a sort of chief consulting role, then in partnership with the league. I mean, I would love to see the teams have, I don't wanna say JV, but you know.
they have their G League affiliates and then there's some kind of developmental system where if that's what a family wants to commit their life to, go after it.
Cory (47:02)
Yeah, absolutely. Let me ask you this last question here. You saw kids for the past 11 years and you saw their parents as well. Have you seen a change in the parents and their mindset and what they're looking for in their conversations?
Mike Nicoll (47:17)
I would say, if anything, I saw an uptick in the exasperation.
I think that this world
has always been intentionally complicated when you talk about the way it's designed. There's all sorts of second and third degree removed access points and plausible deniabilities. And some of that stuff is a relic from the bygone era. But it's not straightforward. Let's say that. What the path forward is. And part of that is on purpose.
So I find, you know, if you're in these gyms, I hear parents saying, I wish I knew then what I know now.
and that's something I do think our film has the capacity to at least slightly improve, like, but yeah, to answer your question on the parents, I mean, of course, every parent wants what's best for their, kid, but when it's rooted in emotion, passion, love, and not like honest inventory of what's in front of you, that's how you end up with
I would say a pretty large percentage of families on the other side with regrets. I wish I knew, you know, say in some version of that regret.
So I wish, you know, and again, going back to like a 30 ,000 foot idea, I wish these parents understood and appreciated the value that their kid contains and owns because I see a lot of desperate decisions getting made.
And I would love to see more families armed with better education making decisions from a position of strength and trust and having a North Star. Maybe that's a good place to end it on. Yeah, I talk about the main thing. I don't care what your North Star is, but it can't change every week because you're going nowhere. If you know, you're just chasing
Cory (49:12)
Yeah.
Mike Nicoll (49:27)
whatever shiny opportunity pops up, whether that's to change AAU teams for minutes, whether that's transferring within high schools, whether that's, you know, it can take any on any form, but having a North Star is critical and I would just like to see more families be able to identify that more intelligently and have the trust and conviction to.
Push toward it.
Cory (49:57)
Love it. We're gonna do a couple quick hitters, Mike. Who's the best player you ever played against?
Mike Nicoll (50:01)
Right?
Best, woof, the best player I ever played against. Wow.
great question. Well, I used to play, I used to train up at UCLA in the summers. So if you're talking in an official game, that's one thing, but I was lucky enough to be in a couple of those men's gym open runs. So, Baron Davis maybe. Being on the court with like some of those UCLA guys during the summer when I was 15, 16, like, yeah, definitely an eye -opening experience.
Cory (50:25)
Okay.
Okay, and in all your filming, you've seen a lot of games and whatnot in the AAU gyms. Was there one performance by one player that really blew you away?
Mike Nicoll (50:48)
Wow. yeah.
Cory (50:51)
There's so many I know, it's an unfair question.
Mike Nicoll (50:56)
I would would I was more blown away by an atmosphere. When LaMelo and Zion played one another, that gym was just a circus. And like that, so like that, the vibe and energy in that gym that day is something I'll never forget. From a, yeah, when LaMelo and Zion, when those teams played,
at a Compton Magic event? That's probably the most memorable in -gym experience I've had. In terms of somebody going off, that's a great question.
and have some pretty nuts games, honestly.
But you know, it's hard to, I don't want to say they all blend, but even in my mind, it's like, did I watch that mixtape online or was I in the gym? But you know, one last thing I'll say, I know this is a quick hitter, I'll keep it brief. It was very bizarre for me, and maybe this is a good answer to your question, to see that growth and explosion of the media infrastructure in this world. When we started in 2012, I was one of maybe five or six cameras on the baseline.
Cory (51:46)
Right.
Mm -hmm.
Mike Nicoll (52:07)
When we finished, there's 200 cameras in those gyms and they're, and Cory, this is the surreal thing. They are all pointed at the exact same thing. They're all getting the same exact footage, the same exact highlights. And I, we were always like interested in the stuff off the court. So it was very bizarre for me to like be the, and affirming in some ways, to be interested in like what no one else was paying attention to. But just.
Cory (52:16)
Hmm.
Mike Nicoll (52:36)
That's again what kind of sticks out at me is like, you talk about the professionalization of these kids' lives. It's like, here's 100 cameras trained on them all day long. And it's all the same stuff. And it's like, I don't know. But I was never interested in that, so I'm really proud of how different our movie is. Sorry, that was a long answer to your quick hitter.
Cory (52:56)
That's all right. Favorite movie of all time.
Mike Nicoll (53:00)
Ooh, that's easy. So that's a great question. Michael Clayton, actually. Yeah, so like when I was making The Spoils, again, going back to how unconventional our story structure is, I wish there was a basketball documentary or sports documentary that was like about the business dynamics to the extent that ours is because as a filmmaker, I love to be able to reference and pay homage and like learn from what worked. There really wasn't a sports documentary that was modeled in any way that I would after like what I wanted to build.
Cory (53:04)
love Clayton.
Mike Nicoll (53:30)
So a lot of my reference points ended up being, I kind of described the two biggest inspirations as like Michael Clayton meets the wire. So like the sort of corporate thriller nature of Michael Clayton merged with the systemic, you know, look at the way the system operates top to bottom that the wire was able to achieve.
Like those, the things that I modeled this film after were much more in those kinds of realms. So I'm a big Soderbergh guy too. Out of Sight is up there. So yeah, Out of Sight.
Cory (54:03)
yeah. That last scene in Michael Clayton with Clooney and Swinton, I think about that probably every two weeks. I think I just want to go back and watch that on YouTube.
Mike Nicoll (54:12)
It's...
I think Michael Clayton is one of the top five movies of the century and I don't think it's close.
Cory (54:20)
Yeah. In that same vein, what's your favorite documentary of all time?
Mike Nicoll (54:25)
Great, another great question. The biggest inspiration to me probably ever has been Citizen 4, the Laura Portras documentary about Edward Snowden. I just loved the urgent, and again, that was another inspiration for The Spoils, but I loved the urgent on the ground storytelling. Now granted, he's on the run from the CIA, so there's some stakes built into that that aren't quite on the level of our film, but nevertheless, the access, the intensity, the tonality.
Cory (54:33)
Yep.
Mike Nicoll (54:55)
I just love films like that and that was what I wanted to build with The Spoils. So hopefully we were able to kind of pull a little bit of that energy into our story.
Cory (55:05)
Yep. Absolutely. And last thing, what are your hobbies when you're not doing what you're doing?
Mike Nicoll (55:09)
man, great question. Well, my wife, I have a 20 month old daughter and we're about to have her baby sister here next month. So yeah, but we live in Seattle now and we wouldn't have moved up here had we not just had a deep reverence and appreciation for world -class nature. So we're out hiking a lot. We're out, you know, we live close to the lake, you know, just as much outdoor biking, as much as outdoor stuff I can do.
Cory (55:16)
Congrats.
Yeah.
Mike Nicoll (55:37)
when I have time, but obviously chasing around two little ones plus my career doesn't leave a ton of room for hobbies, but yeah.
Cory (55:46)
Your movie's a spoils. Where can people find more about you and the movie and where can they watch it ultimately?
Mike Nicoll (55:52)
Yeah, the spoilsmovie .com. That's the central place. That's where you can find the streaming link, all the details about the movie. We've been partnered with Joel .Film for our first window, and they've been an amazing partner. But you can navigate to everything through the spoilsmovie .com. And I really encourage everybody to check it out. There has never been a movie like ours.
Cory (56:15)
Yeah, I concur on that. And then anything else you want to touch on that we didn't talk about, Mike?
Mike Nicoll (56:19)
what's your favorite sports film, Cory? I'm always curious. Do you have a favorite sports film?
Cory (56:28)
Hoosiers.
Mike Nicoll (56:29)
Okay.
Cory (56:29)
And part of that, my dad and all my uncles and cousins that played D1, they grew up in Indiana on a farm. So like that's kind of almost autobiographical.
Mike Nicoll (56:41)
Yeah, no, Hoosiers is foundational, man. On the scripted side, Hoosiers and Blue Chips to me are the two best.
Cory (56:50)
See, I played high school ball with Michael Pitino and he was an extra in Blue Chips behind the bench when his dad was coaching the fictional team. So we all went to the theater to watch it and lost our minds when we saw him on the screen and just haze them. Like we weren't even celebrating. It was the absolute opposite.
Mike Nicoll (57:29)
I will
never forget the time I saw Blue Chips in the theater. And quite honestly, it's probably a big reason why I chose to do what I do now. That movie's electric. It has its flaws, but it's, talk about, especially for the time it was made, a bold movie for sure.
Cory (57:23)
yeah. Absolutely. Well, Mike, thanks so much for coming on the show. Mike Nicoll, director of The Spoils and it's a great movie. Check it out. I've watched it already. Loved it. And that's why I wanted to get Mike on the podcast to talk more about it. So if you like this, be sure to subscribe and all the major podcasting platforms, subscribe to our YouTube channel, go to the website, prepathletics .com and sign up for their newsletter and tune in next week for another episode of the PREP Athletics Podcast. Thanks again, Mike.
Mike Nicoll (57:53)
Thanks, Cory.
Cory (57:54)
Alright, we'll see y 'all next time.