Class A Basketball, Reclass vs Post-Grad, & Academics in Recruiting ft. Coach Max Gordon of St. Paul's

This episode of the PREP Athletics Podcast features an engaging conversation with Coach Max Gordon from St. Paul’s School. We dive into Coach Gordon’s journey through New England prep schools, his insights into coaching, and what sets St. Paul’s apart. Topics covered include the differences between reclassing and post-grad years, finding the right fit for players, and the development of high academic and athletic programs. Coach Gordon also shares his thoughts on recruiting strategies, the balance of academics and athletics, and how to prepare athletes for the next level in college basketball. If you're navigating the world of prep school basketball, this episode is packed with valuable insights and practical advice.

📌 Key Topics:
✅Revitalizing a Program: Coach Max Gordon's journey transforming St. Paul's Boys Basketball into a competitive New England team.
✅Historic Success: Achievements including St. Paul's first winning season in over a decade, NEPSAC Class A Playoff berth, and victories over Class AAA opponents.
✅Balancing Academics & Athletics: The approach to developing student-athletes who excel both on the court and in the classroom.
✅Recruiting and Player Development: Strategies for developing versatile players and finding the right fit for college-bound athletes.
✅Community & Fundraising Efforts: Contributions to the American Cancer Society through the Coaches vs. Cancer program and fostering a strong team culture.

🗒️About Max:
Since taking over as head coach in 2017-18, Coach Max Gordon has revitalized the St. Paul’s Boys Basketball program, achieving its first winning season in over a decade, three consecutive Top-3 finishes in the Lakes Region League, and a historic 2022-23 season with 15 wins and a berth in the NEPSAC Class A Playoffs. With experience as a camp and AAU coach, a USA Basketball Gold Certification, and a successful playing career at Carnegie Mellon University, Coach Gordon has led St. Paul’s to become one of the most competitive prep teams in New England.

🔗 Connect with Max:
Email | mgordon@sps.edu
Twitter | https://twitter.com/spsmbb
Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/spsmbb/
LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/max-gordon-846983161/

🔗 Connect with Cory:

Website | https://www.prepathletics.com
Twitter | https://twitter.com/PREP_Athletics
Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/prep.athletics/
Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/PrepAthletics
Email | coryheitz@gmail.com
Phone | 859-317-1166

🔖 Subscribe to the PREP Athletics Podcast:

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Coach Max Gordon and St. Paul’s School.
• 1:06 Max’s transition to prep school as a student; choosing the right fit and becoming college-ready.
• 3:16 Max’s experience at Carnegie Mellon and advice for student-athletes during their college selection process.
• 5:10 Reclassing vs. post-grad year: understanding the benefits and considerations of each.
• 8:56 Insight into the reclassing process and how it benefits players academically and athletically.
• 11:25 The distinct advantages of attending St. Paul’s, from academics to community.
• 12:03 Coach Gordon’s approach to basketball at St. Paul’s – high academic standards, strong sense of community, and competitive athletics.
• 16:13 Recruiting strategies and building a strong team culture without post-grads.
• 17:45 Placement strategy: Helping athletes find the right college fit through personalized attention and strong connections.
• 20:57 Discussion on the competitiveness of Class A basketball and how prep school classes impact the game.
• 23:28 Max Gordon’s thoughts on alumni, notable St. Paul’s graduates, and playing the “Name the Prep School Alumni” game.
• 27:14 The future of prep school basketball: depth, coaching changes, and the growth of Class A competition.
• 30:08 What does it take to be a D1 guard today? Skills, intelligence, and the mental game.
• 33:16 Quick hitters – best players Max has coached/played against, favorite movies, and hobbies.
• 36:43 Closing remarks and reflections on what Coach Gordon seeks in players at St. Paul’s School.

Transcript

Cory Heitz (00:00)
Welcome to this week's episode of the Prep Athletics Podcast. I'm proud to have coach Max Gordon on from the St. Paul's School in New Hampshire. And Max spent his high school years at New Hampton before transferring to Exeter and then playing at Carnegie Mellon. And he's been at St. Paul's now for a while. He talks about single A, how he gets his players, the growth of prep school basketball and much, more. So thanks so much for tuning in. Hope you enjoy the episode.

Cory Heitz (00:50)
Max, welcome to the podcast.

Max Gordon (00:52)
Thanks for having me, Cory. Looking forward to talking today.

Cory Heitz (00:54)
Yeah, me too. And you grew up in New Hampshire and you yourself ended up choosing to go to a prep school. Talk me through what that decision making process was and how you chose a prep school.

Max Gordon (01:06)
That's a great question. So I My mom actually worked at New Hampton school and I don't know if you knew that but she worked at New Hampton school and she worked in admissions and so I was a day student there for three years and I was I had a good experience there enjoyed being at school there But I was looking to get away from home have a new experience And that was right when actually Jay Tilton who's at Exeter now was starting to be their coach

And he, his dad was coaching at New Hampton back in the day and his dad was like, Hey, you need to take a look at the school, get away from home, you know, do something new. And so I started talking to Jay and he recruited me down to Exeter. And what I was really looking for in that experience was, you know, what I sell to a lot of kids here at St. Paul's is, is, you know, becoming college ready. And, and I had two years where I was really academically, I was really pushed.

Two years away from home. I did a reclass junior senior year two years away from home Where I had to grow and be independent and then two years of really high -level basketball just like Newhampton obviously but but there was more opportunity for me to play there at that time and So I really got those two years of experience inside and outside the classroom on and off the court

that got me college ready. And that's what I was looking for, to be ready to take that next step and become a college basketball player and be ready once I got there. And that opportunity to be pushed academically as well as on the court. And that's really what I got. And I had a wonderful experience there. And Jay and I have now had our battles, St. Paul's versus Exeter. And we've both gotten a couple against each other now.

and, and, I, he's a, he's a mentor and a friend and, that kind of got me into the boarding school world. And when I went to college, I was a business major at Carnegie Mellon and I thought that that's what I wanted to do. Go work in sports marketing or sports advertising. And about halfway through my college experience, I realized that I loved, I love to read and I loved basketball. And so I thought, why don't I go back to boarding school and try to do these things for a living? And I've been a teacher and a coach ever since.

Cory Heitz (03:13)
Perfect. How did you go choosing Carnegie Mellon?

Max Gordon (03:16)
great question. So I was, when I was a senior at Exeter, the schools that were recruiting me the hardest were Tufts and Middlebury and Carnegie Mellon. And I, I visited all three and really it was just, it was by feel, you know, when I, when I'm walking my players through the recruiting process right now, I always tell them a few important things. I'm like, if you go there.

And you get hurt, are you still going to be happy there? If you go there and your career is not all that it's cracked up to be, are you still going to be happy there? And then number two, how much does the coach want you? Cause you, cause you got to be really wanted. and that makes such a big difference in terms of the athletic side of the career. And so for me, you know, my mom's family is from the Pittsburgh area originally. So I had some familiarity out there.

And when I visited Carnegie Mellon, just the guys on the team felt like a great fit wanting to have a business major versus an economics major felt like a great fit. the city itself felt like a great fit. all these things that weren't what the coach was telling me about my role in my playing time, felt like the place where I wanted to be from an academic and personal standpoint. And then from the basketball standpoint, had a good relationship with the, with the coach, Tony Wingen, who's still there.

and the opportunity to play in the UAA, which is such a wonderful league, like the opportunity to fly to our games, go play NYU, go play Chicago, Brandeis Wash U, that was really exciting for me to play that high level of Division III basketball. And the other schools I loved as well, I could have gone to any place, wonderful coaches at those places, wonderful schools. Also a desire on my end to get a little bit away from home too, had wonderful relationship with my parents.

But I wanted to push myself out of my comfort zone as well and get out in New England. And I will never, I am so grateful for that. Even though I'm back in New England now, I'm so grateful for a college experience that was a little bit different than, you know, just going an hour and a half down the road from where I grew up.

Cory Heitz (05:09)
Yeah, makes perfect sense. Now, let me walk back to a statement you said when you chose Exeter, you chose to reclass. And I was just talking to a family yesterday about reclassing versus just staying the course and then doing a post -grade year. Explain to me your logic on, is there one benefit over the other and how you describe this to families and take St. Paul out of it. Cause know you guys don't have a post -grade year. We'll get to that, but walk me through that logic.

Max Gordon (05:36)
So it's hard to take St. Paul's out of it because obviously I'm biased. And I like that, you know, we're a school without a post -grad year. And I think that's really great for our community and for our team. For me, for myself, that opportunity to have two years at a place, two years with a coach, two years with my teammates, two years from an academic perspective. think, you know, every player that does this in the boarding school process, whether it's two or three or four years at a place, every player who goes to play in college.

they know how much easier that second year is than the first year. It is such a big adjustment year, whether it's the level of play that's a step up, whether it's the academic rigor that's a step up, whether it's just being away from home as a step up. And then all of a sudden you show up on, on, you know, the second year and you're like, I know this, I've got this, I've got this under control. And now everything gets better. Your performance on the court, your performance in the classroom, your relationship with your peers.

and so for me, that's what I was looking for that, that two year experience as opposed to just one year in and out. And, like I said, I'm biased. And when families ask me about this at St. Paul's, I, and I truly believe this, you know, we don't have post -grads and I see that two years as a transformative experience. You know, our guys who come in for two years, by the time they leave, they feel like St. Paul's graduates and they are, and I know, and I know all these other wonderful schools that run great PG programs.

those guys still get their diplomas from that school and all that stuff. But I feel like for us, that two year experience, it's, it's relationship with your coach. It's being able to get what St. Paul's is trying to give you in two years, be able to get familiar and really fall in love with the place. And that's just speaking on behalf of our guys who I know who have come here, gotten what they wanted out of it and fallen in love with this place. They want to come back. They want to come to games. They're still in touch with me. And I think.

Those experiences can happen in a post -grad year too, but I think two years is just, you get that opportunity to be transformed by a place as opposed to what I say can sometimes be a little bit transactional when it's just one year in, one year out.

Cory Heitz (07:37)
Yeah, but let's, am I assuming Exeter would not have done a 12th grade post -grad option for you?

Max Gordon (07:42)
they, think they would have, if I, if I wanted to, if I wanted to do one year, one year they do like we don't do at St. Paul's, we don't do one year seniors, but Exeter did. and for me personally, I, and like you probably talked to many families about, I needed that extra year to develop physically. I needed that extra year to develop, you know, confidence on the court, get the reps, get the playing time. I needed that extra year academically to,

prepare myself for college. That extra year was just, it was so valuable for me, whether that's a fifth year as a PG year, whether that's a reclass at whatever grade you're going to do. You know, at these high academic schools, we have families ask all the time, I'm a great student. Why do I need to reclass? And the students, the players normally get it and the parents normally need to be introduced to it, particularly those if they're not from New England and it's a little bit less familiar where they're from.

I just think both that physical development and the rigor in the classroom and the independence too. Like I really do think that extra year can make people so college ready that it can be a real difference maker.

Cory Heitz (08:46)
Absolutely. But here's my question here to be a little bit more clear on it. You're going to do two years at Exeter, right? You chose to reclass and redo 11th 12th, or you could have done 12th grade post -grad. Two years, different designations. How do you explain, can you, since you don't have a post -grad year, can you explain if there's one benefit over the other or does it even matter?

Max Gordon (08:56)
gotcha.

man, think, you know, for, that's a good question.

Cory Heitz (09:10)
There's something about retake class that you can retake classes as a post -grade. can take retake one if you're a normal, educational kid. And then if you have an IEP slash learning disability, you can retake three classes. So I think that might be the reason to do the post -grad option, but I don't ever have a great answer for that. know coaches answer families that question. I just didn't know if you knew one way or the other, one was better or not. It's tricky. It's tricky.

Max Gordon (09:34)
Not, I mean, not, it's trick, it's tricky. You know, I think in, it's school dependent too. And obviously the NCAA has their rules about, about, you know, division one eligibility. And that's all about, you know, what happens in the first four years anyway. it's tricky in terms, I think it's all based on, you know, what the school can offer. What's what is the family's looking for? You know, I think most of our schools at the high academic level, like to like to.

emphasize that we can that students don't have to retake classes because they probably, you know, the players that are looking at the Exeter's and the St. Paul's and the Andover's, the Chote's, you know, they usually don't want to retake classes because they because they're already so far along. And so we have the course offering the Exeter as the course offerings where you don't have to retake classes. So I think that you know that junior senior reclass versus senior post grad

Cory Heitz (10:08)
Good.

Max Gordon (10:28)
You know, I've seen some people who do the senior post -grad thing at a place like Bridgeton where they might want to see what their recruiting is like after senior year so that the opportunity to leave after one year is an option. And I can see that as really logical for the right person, the right player to have a little bit more flexibility. So I think that is so individual based and school based what people are looking for.

and I, and honestly, I thought about that a little bit myself. Like, do I want to do a senior year, see what happens with my recruiting and then post -grad? And honestly, I didn't want to, I didn't want to mess around with, with kind of the uncertainty and am I going to apply to the school that I'm currently at again? What do I have to do with all that? I just thought like, I want two years that I'm going to invest myself in this place. And so I think that's what made my decision, you know, when I was back in high school, but I think that it, like I said, it's very individual.

Cory Heitz (11:24)
Yeah. And I'd what I tell families is look, talk to each school's coach, get their advice on it. It might be better at their school to reclass or due to circumstances, it might be better to do 12th grade post -grad. So each coach might have their own pitch on how to do that. But my, my statement on this as well, Max is you probably need that 50 regardless because the game at the college level is getting so older. So it's just figure out individually, which one makes sense for you and then go from there. But the key is if you're talking to prep school coaches, folks.

Max Gordon (11:47)
Absolutely.

Cory Heitz (11:54)
Ask their opinion for their school because some schools you can graduate 12th year from, but you can't attend their prep school for post -grad. So every place a little bit different. Everyone has their own logic. Talk to the prep school coach. They're going to know best on this. yeah. All right. Now you coach at St. Paul's. Give us your pitch on St. Paul's. What makes it special as a school? It makes it a great basketball program. This is your elevator pitch time,

Max Gordon (12:02)
Yep, yep.

Absolutely.

Thank you. What I focus on with families here is three things. focus number one on our academics. We are as good as it gets. All of the high academic boarding schools, some of which I mentioned before, we're right there. So if you want top class, top notch academics, you're going to get them at St. Paul's. Number two is our sense of community. We are right in the middle size wise.

And that says a lot about who we are. know, there's smaller boarding schools that are 250, 300. There's larger ones that are a thousand or more. And we are 540 students and we're a hundred percent boarding. So every student, every faculty member lives on campus. and that means we have a really strong sense of community here. And so what that plays out in, in a player's life here and at student athletes life is their math teacher really knows their name and they go to their games and.

And their math teacher is going to be in the student center for extra help the day after their game if they need to be, you know, help studying for a test. They're going to be there for office hours. And you, it's big enough where you're going to make new friends around campus, but it's small enough that, you know, we get big crowds in our gym and the students all know each other and they care about each other and they invest in each other. And I think that comes from the size of the community, the a hundred percent residential and that everybody who comes here has to be here for at least two years.

So the academics, the community, and then on the basketball side, I believe we play pretty much the hardest schedule there is for a high academic prep school. I know that a lot of schools could claim that. And so I don't think, I don't necessarily think our schedule is, is harder than school X, Y, or Z, but because we're in class A, which is an incredibly high level of NEPSAC basketball.

We're in class A where the teams who win class A on a year by year basis are really, really good. you know, multiple division one players, multiple high level division three players. They're really, really good. And then we're also in the lakes region league. So we play Brewster every year. We play New Hampton every year. We play Vermont Academy, Tilton, KUA. And so that level of competition for us, I think that at a high academic school, it's going to be hard to find another school.

that gets that level of competition. And what that means for prospective students is they're going to get the exposure and they're going to get the experience necessary to ready themselves for the next level. And so that's what I focus on with us is it's the academics, it's the community, and it's that high level of basketball. And at the same time on the basketball front, because we're a school without post grads, I believe that we have a really strong team culture.

And we have a focus on player development at St. Paul's because we have to. There's, there's nobody's coming here for one year coming in and out. And my assistant coach and I have to work really hard on helping players get better and better each year so that we can continue to get more and more competitive. So from a coaching perspective, what you get here is a coach that really wants to develop you and a coach that's going to invest in you because you're going to be around for two, three, four years.

And a coach that is not going to recruit over you because that's not how we work. We bring in new ninth, 10th, 11th, and ninth, 10th and 11th graders. And we have to work to develop them each, each year because that's how we grow as a program. And we can't bring in that one year guy. So if you come here and you work hard and you're coachable, your role is only going to expand year by year. And I work really hard to recruit guys.

who are coachable and who want to be good teammates. And that reflects in our culture because everybody that my assistant coach and I coach, we have to coach them for two or three or four years and they have to be good teammates for two or three or four years. So we try to recruit the guys who really want to be here and really want to be coached. And I think that results in a program with players who really enjoy playing together and enjoy being around each other and enjoying getting into the gym and getting into the gym and working.

Cory Heitz (16:12)
Love it. Now how do you find your players? Is it cold calls? Is it coaching contacts? Is it you being on the aggressive?

Max Gordon (16:19)
a little bit of everything. So I, I go, you know, I do some travel to camps and showcases, in new England, you know, places where I think I might find good high academic players. That's gotta be, it's gotta be a focus for us. So, you know, in, in our location, you know, it's a, it's a great place to be in terms of the ability to go to, and watch Ivy league elite camps or Nescah elite camps and get an eye on who some of the young guys are that are interested in these high academic colleges.

because hopefully that means they'll be interested in a high academic prep school. And so doing some camp work, building relationships with local AAU coaches who know kids who might want to prep, then just kind of having my ear to local basketball, trying to recruit New England really well and reaching out to the up and coming players, whether that's ninth, tenth, 11th. And then also like...

You know, as much as the world has changed in the last five to 10 years where social media plays such a big part and you know, we have players who are following our social media accounts and reach out with interest. And so some of the recruiting is reactive where players are reaching out with interest in us, which is great. And I think it showed some of growth of the program, but we have players reaching out to us. And then that's the way, you

somebody reaches out to my assistant coach or I on social media or somebody pops up because they're from a place where we've got another player. And then we just try to get a family's contact information and start with emails and phone calls and things like that.

Cory Heitz (17:44)
All right, perfect. Now you finally built your team. You have these kids for at least two years. Now you got to get them to the collegiate level. What is your strategy for placement? Do you work with an AU coach? Do you ever work with college placement guys? Do you only have to do a couple kids a year so you take it on yourself? Walk me through your placement strategy.

Max Gordon (18:01)
It's a lot that I take on myself because in our program, in any given year, we're going to have three to five seniors on the team. I think in my time as head coach, the largest class we've had where they all played college basketball was five guys. We had four division three players and one division one guy in a class. But on an average year, it could be two or three guys.

in the same senior class because we're a school of 540. So we have a team where we might have four five seniors on every team. Sometimes a couple of those guys might be multi -sport guys who could be playing college sports somewhere else. So in an average year, it could be two or three guys going to look to play in college. And I take a lot on in terms of reaching out to college coaches.

encouraging college coaches to get here to watch for open gyms, working with AAU coaches to get guys in the right programs and get exposure, working with families to make sure that I know the wants and dreams of the player. And then we have a wonderful college advising office here who those college advisors work with all students, including our student athletes. And that's where I can make sure that if it, let's say it's a high academic division three player.

I can make sure that I'm the liaison between the college coach, the player, our college advisor, and know like, you know, we're not, we're not having a kid go too far down the road with a school that he might not be able to get into even with the support of basketball. And so we, it's just a matter of working with all of those people and, and trying to keep it organized. And so I take on a lot of that, you know, I just have, I just have files on all of our guys.

and make sure I'm sending the right stuff to coaches and then getting stuff here. And then as you know, it's also about what the players are gonna do. how I can do, I do everything I can as a coach and I really view my job. Like I love, I'm competitive, I love winning. I wanna win a championship in class A, but I view my job as getting players from point A to point B as players and as people.

And so if that point B is being a college player, which the guys who come in here want to be, if that's the point B, I'm working my tail off to get them there, but they need to work their tail off too. And so that's the hours and hours in the gym. That's the, that's the weight work. It's also, you know, the, tough reality of college coach comes in a gym or comes to your AAU game or to an open gym. Like you got to play well, you got to play hard. You got to play well. You got to perform.

Cory Heitz (20:29)
Yeah.

Max Gordon (20:32)
when the right people are there. And I like to think that I've built really strong connections at the division one and division three level. And at the same time, players got to perform when coaches get in the gym. You I can get guys in the gym a few times a year. You know, I can get the same program in the gym a couple of times a year in multiple colleges in throughout the year. But you got to perform when they show up. And I think that's, you know, so it's all part of it.

Cory Heitz (20:56)
Yeah, thanks for sharing that. That's good to let families know how your process is. Now, one thing I want to go back on, you mentioned how good single A is and you mentioned that you play against AAA, AA teams and you actually beat a AAA team a few years ago. We won't mention who that was, but tell me this, does it matter in the NEPSEC if you're single A, AA, AAA, B? Talk me through that, because I know you get that from families sometimes.

Max Gordon (21:20)
Yes. It all depends. I think that virtually any team in New England can beat anyone else on a given day. Virtually any good A team can beat anybody else on a given day. The really good B teams can beat anybody on a given day. I know everybody's afraid of some of those B teams, right? There's some B teams that are really, really good.

Cory Heitz (21:42)
That's right.

Max Gordon (21:46)
And they can beat anybody and they have and a teams have beaten anybody and they have you know, the big difference is really Again, like what is it? What does a kid want? What is a family? What you know that the the rules are a little bit different where? Triple -a can play more games than us double -a can play a few more games than us class a were limited to 25 regular season games Which is honestly enough?

In my opinion, but 25 regular season games, know, class double A can play a couple more class, AAA can play a couple more. They get to start practice a couple of weeks earlier. That's like, there's all those little rule things. And you might have more post -grads at a school or, or, you know, that sort of thing. But I think really like in terms of the level of competition, anybody can beat anybody. You know, the, the difference is.

What do, what do guys nine, 10, 11, 12 look like on your roster? think, you know, the, really good class eight teams, they're going to have eight really good players, you know, and, maybe they're not, maybe not all eight or college basketball players, but maybe five or six are in the other two could play college basketball, but they're playing D one football or something like that. the difference might be on a really good class, a team.

Maybe nine, 10, 11, 12, or playing college basketball too. But that's not even, that's not even true for every AAA or every AA. but it's really a question of, of, you know, just the difference in rules. Cause I really do think pretty much anybody can beat pretty much anyone else. not necessarily, you know, that's not to say that if we played a AAA team 10 times, it's always going to be, we win five, they win five. But on any given day, most A programs have enough talent to surprise just about anybody.

Cory Heitz (23:27)
Yeah. In my, my stand standby, I've said this thousands of times. You pick a school based on the coach. I don't care what level it is. You pick it on the coach because that's going to determine a lot of your success and satisfaction at a prep school. and good pros have come out of every class. So if you want to play in the NBA, if you're good enough, they're going to find you. Okay. So that's my thing. Max, we're going to play a game called name the alumni. All right.

Max Gordon (23:49)
Absolutely.

Okay.

Cory Heitz (23:55)
I'm gonna name three alumni from St. Paul's School and there's tons of them, tons of notable alumni. And you tell me if they know who they are and we'll see how many you get out of three, okay?

Max Gordon (24:03)
If, okay, go ahead. You just started off.

Cory Heitz (24:06)
Okay, first is Tim Ferriss.

Yeah.

Max Gordon (24:08)
the actor that's in it.

Cory Heitz (24:10)
I don't think, no, Tim Ferriss is the author of the five hour work week, four hour work week, four hour body.

Max Gordon (24:15)
That's a crazy answer by me, I'm sorry. Look it up though, I guarantee you there's somebody named, with a last name, Ferris, in the original Stephen King It movie, but that's a crazy answer by me.

Cory Heitz (24:24)
in the, you mean the one on the mini series that was on like the late eighties?

Max Gordon (24:29)
I the original, I don't know, the original movie. don't, maybe, maybe that's an awful answer. I'm defending it now.

Cory Heitz (24:36)
Alright, I'm a child of the 80s and in the late 80s, IT book came out with a mini series on TV where every child in America watched it and got terrified. And then obviously they remade the movie about 10 years ago and the clown was scary but nothing like the 80s IT clown. So look up the 80s IT clown on Google and you will see how that was in all our nightmares for a good two or three months. Tim Ferriss, one of the top podcasts in the world.

Max Gordon (24:44)
Yeah.

You

Cory Heitz (25:03)
Author the four hour work week. And he has mentioned St. Paul's a couple of times on his podcast. anyway, you know, number two Archibald Gracie. This is a tough one.

Max Gordon (25:07)
Awesome. Awesome.

I don't know who that is. I thought I was going to get Archie Cox, I knew who was our former president of the board of trustees whose family worked on the Watergate case back in the day. Archie Cox, St. Paul's alum, but I don't know who Archie Gracie is.

Cory Heitz (25:15)
Okay, this is not a household name.

That's great.

There's no grade on this. just for fun. Archibald Gracie was a West Point grad and Titanic survivor. How about that? Okay. Last one here. look, there's some bigger names. This one, this one, you got kids?

Max Gordon (25:33)
hehe

Wow, that's awesome.

Ha ha.

Yes, four and two.

Cory Heitz (25:48)
You might know this one, Clement Hurd.

Max Gordon (25:50)
I don't know who that is.

Cory Heitz (25:51)
The author of Good Night Moon.

Max Gordon (25:54)
I didn't know that was a St. Paul's alum. We have a tattered version from when I was in the early 90s when I was a kid in my daughter's bedroom right now.

Cory Heitz (26:01)
Alright, I know John Kerry also went there. Are any other heavy hitters you want to mention off the top of your head?

Max Gordon (26:05)
good question. John Kerry is really good. You have read, I'm looking at it on my bookcase right now. Counterfeit by Kirsten Chen is an awesome book that came out in the last 10 or so years. She's a St. Paul's alum and a boarding school in Concord, New Hampshire gets a shout out in that book. That's fantastic. I'm trying to think of other big ones. mean, John Kerry, John Kerry is the biggest one for sure.

Cory Heitz (26:25)
more.

Max Gordon (26:31)
Now I'm blanking on his first name, but we just put in our science center. His last name is Enders and he was a Nobel Prize winner for science. So that is a really good one too. Yeah.

Cory Heitz (26:42)
Okay. Anyway, you go to Wikipedia, the alumni at St. Paul's has their own Wikipedia page or so many of them and you look at them, there's some pretty neat ones. So I wasn't fair. didn't give you some of the big ones, but Titanic survivor and author of good night moods, pretty darn good. So we'll take that. All right. That was this week's edition of name the prep school alumni. Now, if I went to your alma mater of Exeter, I know you and Jay Tilton could list off quite a few, but we're not.

Max Gordon (26:52)
yeah.

Awesome.

Yes, for sure.

Cory Heitz (27:10)
We're not talking about Exeter, we're talking about St. Paul. Okay,

Cory Heitz (27:13)
Max, what do you see as the future of prep school basketball?

Max Gordon (27:18)
That's such a good question. I think the thing that you know I'm coming into my eighth year as a head coach here at Saint Paul's and the thing that I've been incredibly impressed by is the depth of Class A and how it keeps getting better and better and better. If you look at any Class A school in the last, you know, five to 10 years, any school that's had a coach leave, had a coach retire.

the people they are hiring in this league to coach are just really good. Maybe they're in a lot of times they're coming from the college level, know, D3 assistant, D1 assistant. And with that, you've seen every program get more and more competitive. mean, they're the class A coaches, we say it to each other all the time. There really are no games off in class A. And I think that's what I've been so impressed by, because I remember my own high school experience and the top end of New England basketball.

was incredible. you had some games that were sure things on your schedule. And I feel like most class A schools, especially because we want to schedule as many class A games as possible, there's very few sure thing games on your schedule, if any. And so in terms of the future of high school basketball, seems to me, especially in the world that I work in, it seems to me families are valuing

academics more and more and more alongside athletics. And you see the right, like, you know, the Ivy league in college being at, you know, a top 10 conference in the United States, top five, sometimes conference in terms of how competitive they are. And so I think you see how much families are valuing academics. And I think that has trickled down to the prep school level where they're valuing academics at the prep school level too. And so where I see the future is I think

Class A is going to only get more competitive. mean, you look at the coaches and you look at the schools that maybe were under 500 last year, but you look at their coaches and they're going to be over 500 this year. It's going to be, I mean, the fact that only eight teams make the playoffs in our league is unbelievable because there's going to be 12 to 16 that could beat anybody in the league in a given year. And so I see Class A getting more more deep. And then I think the kind of classic powerhouses

at the AA and AAA level, I think they'll continue to succeed. Cause I think those schools have put the resources in to the coaches, put the resources into the off the court training, put the resources into the schedule. You you look at where some of these schools are able to travel. So I see, you know, obviously since my time as a player, we've seen some schools kind of fall out of the ranks or maybe not even be in the NEPSAC anymore.

but you still have the kind of traditional powerhouses in the double A and triple A. And I see those continuing because I think those serve a really important purpose for a lot of players too.

Cory Heitz (30:07)
Absolutely. I share your sentiment on that with single A just getting better and better. And yeah, no nights off. It's a knife fight every game now. So what's it take Max to be a D1 guard?

Max Gordon (30:14)
yeah, yeah.

That's such a good question. I've seen you ask. I've seen you ask other coaches this question too. man, it is it is. There is so much there is so much to it. You know, I think that.

Cory Heitz (30:22)
Your news coming.

Max Gordon (30:31)
The guard position, the point guard position, you know, it is so overcrowded in terms of guys competing for very limited spots. You know, the taller you get, the more you separate yourself a little bit as you move to the wing and to the inside. Not that it's not incredibly hard for those guys to find their spot at a D1 school too. But I just think, you you look at the way the game is played now and most D1 guards can do both.

they can handle and they can score and they can make plays. But you gotta, think first and foremost, you gotta be incredibly intelligent. You gotta be incredibly intelligent because if you look, and I've been to a lot of division one practices, and if you watch a division one coach, coach of practice, I mean, you see division one coaches sometimes when you watch on TV, you see them yelling and screaming, but those guys are so analytical.

in practice that you want to be a guard for a that knows the metrics and a coach that knows where people need to be on the court. You have to be incredibly intelligent to be able to be a guard because in order to be a guard at that level, you got to limit mistakes and you got to make plays. And that takes a lot of brains and it takes a lot of experience too. need to be doing that.

from the time you're 16, 17 years old. So you talk about going to a school with a right fit, whether that's St. Paul's or somewhere else, you wanna be a D1 guard, you need a coach that's gonna give you reps so that you can learn and so that you can get college ready so that when that division one coach is expecting a high level of performance out of you and a high level of mental performance, you're able to give it. So I think the intelligence is so much because you got it, the assignments offensively and defensively.

You just have to limit mistakes. You really have to limit mistakes at a position that's so critical. And that goes for limit mistakes on the defensive end too. Like you got to be in the right spot. You got to take a charge when it's time. You can't get caught out of position. You know, if you're a quick guy, great, but you can't get caught out of position. If you're not a quick guy, you better always be in the right position. You can't forget to box out. You know, you need to, you need to be smart. You need to do all the little things. And then, you know, more or less, unless you can do something else incredibly well.

you got to knock down open shots. You know, don't have to be Steph Curry to be a Division I guard, but you got to be a consistent shooter and a threat. And you look at someone like Drew Holliday for the Celtics this year, I mean, his corner three -point percentage was insane. And so if you're thinking point guard in college, if you're not Steph Curry or if you don't have John Marantz athleticism, shoot 50 % from three in the corner.

and you just gotta be smart and solid and limit those mistakes.

Cory Heitz (33:15)
Love it. All right, quick hitters here, Max. You ready? Best player you ever played against.

Max Gordon (33:18)
All right.

Let's go. Isaiah Thomas, lefty Celtic Isaiah Thomas at five star camp in Pennsylvania in the cabins, the bunk beds back in the day. I saw him in a game. My team played him. Thankfully, it wasn't on me that he made this move, but five foot nine takes off mid lane, crams it on somebody. He is nasty. He is nasty.

Cory Heitz (33:44)
Okay, best player you've ever coached against.

Max Gordon (33:45)
man, I hate to give this to a guy still in high school, but AJ DeBonsa is the truth. He is the truth. I don't hate to give it to him because he seems like a great kid and a hard worker and a good teammate. I would love to be able to be saying an NBA player's name right now, but he is the truth. just, there wasn't, when we played him,

Before he left St. Sebs, when we played him his sophomore year in the playoffs, he just didn't leave a doubt of the fact that he's gonna be an NBA player. There was just no doubt. He was incredible.

Cory Heitz (34:22)
Okay, favorite movie.

Max Gordon (34:23)
Shawshank Redemption.

Cory Heitz (34:25)
Okay, and your hobby when you're not coaching.

Max Gordon (34:27)
taking care of our chickens. We got three chickens in the backyard. They're laying two eggs a day right now. I love them, my kids love them. Getting into gardening a little bit too.

Cory Heitz (34:31)
cool.

Cough cough

Perfect. Is there anything you want to touch on that we didn't cover?

Max Gordon (34:42)
I think the only thing that's on my mind is, you know, I mentioned what separates St. Paul's and what sets us apart. And I hope that, you know, when players and families listen to this, you know, if they're also thinking about like, well, what is Max Gordon? What is Coach Gordon looking for in a player? You know, we want guys here who are versatile.

and who are smart and who are wanting and who want to be coached. Like I, you know, I have my three things that St. Paul's does and that's academics, community in the high level of basketball. And the three things that we're looking for in players, like I want guys who are comfortable playing multiple positions. It doesn't mean if you're a stud point guard, I'm going to put you at the four, but it means that if you get rid of the ball, you better be comfortable cutting, moving, et cetera. I want guys who are comfortable at multiple positions and who can guard multiple positions. And that's the way the game is moving.

I want guys who are smart because we expect a high level. We expect a short learning curve at St. Paul's and we expect a high level of being able to digest information and carry it out on the court because I am not a coach that likes to have my fingerprints on every single second of the game. I like to give the players the plan and work with them to develop the plan and have them carry it out and get their feedback even in a game. So intelligence is huge.

And then wanting to be coached, you know, if you're going to be here for two or three or four years and you have big goals and big dreams, I hope you're willing to take feedback from me and I hope you're willing to take feedback from your teammates. We had our first open gym this morning and that was a point I emphasized. If you take a bad shot and your teammate tells you bad shot, you say, okay, I got you next time. Like I don't want guys fighting about shot selection on the court. I want guys who can get tough on each other and take that feedback too. Cause if you know,

We can be good with a good coach and assistant coach, but we'll never be the best we'll be in unless the players are doing the hard work of coaching too. that's what I really look for. I look for guys who are versatile, who are smart and who are willing to be coached and to coach each other.

Cory Heitz (36:42)
Sounds good. Well, look, appreciate you coming on today. We're going to have all your contact information in the show notes down below. No matter where you're watching this coach, Max Gordon, St. Paul's school in New Hampshire coming on today to share his philosophies and a little bit more about the school. Max, we thank you so much for coming on.

Max Gordon (36:58)
Thanks for having me, Cory. I appreciate it.

Cory Heitz (37:00)
Yeah, thanks for tuning in, guys. We'll see you next time. Take care.