PREP Athletics Basketball Podcast
PREP Athletics Basketball Podcast
The College Recruitment Playbook ft. Coach John Zall of Vermont Academy
Coach John Zall shares his wealth of knowledge on navigating the complex landscape of prep school basketball. From college recruitment strategies to player development philosophies, Coach Zall offers invaluable insights for athletes and families considering the prep school path. Drawing from his experience both in prep school and professional basketball, he discusses the importance of academic-athletic balance, the evolving recruitment landscape, and what it truly takes to succeed at the next level. Whether you’re a student-athlete, parent, or coach, this episode provides essential guidance on making informed decisions about prep school basketball and maximizing opportunities for collegiate success.
đź“Ś Key Points
âś… The importance of daily high-level competition in player development
âś… Strategies for physical development and strength training for collegiate readiness
âś… The role of shooting ability in D1 recruitment
âś… Benefits of prep school exposure to college scouts
âś… How prep schools prepare athletes for collegiate success both academically and athletically
âś… The advantage of having experienced coaches as advocates in the recruitment process
🗒️ About John:
A distinguished figure in basketball development, Coach John Zall currently leads Vermont Academy’s basketball program as Head Boys’ Prep Coach and Associate Director of College Counseling. His impressive career includes working with the Dallas Mavericks’ player development staff alongside NBA stars Dirk Nowitzki and Deron Williams, and success as an assistant coach at Franklin Pierce University where he helped guide the team to the 2013-14 NCAA Tournament. A graduate of Northeastern University with a Bachelor’s in Sociology and holding a Master’s in Public Policy from Trinity College, Zall was recently named Boys’ Basketball Class AAA Coach of the Year, cementing his status as a leading figure in prep school basketball.
đź”— Connect with John:
Email | jzall@vermontacademy.org
X | https://x.com/john_zall
LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-zall-2578121b9
X | https://x.com/vermontacadhoop?lang=en
Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/vermontacadhoop/
đź”— Connect with Cory:
Website | https://www.prepathletics.com
Twitter | https://twitter.com/PREP_Athletics
Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/prep.athletics/
Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/PrepAthletics
Email | coryheitz@gmail.com
Phone | 859-317-1166
đź”– Subscribe to the PREP Athletics Podcast:
iTunes | https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/prep-athletics-podcast/id1546265809?uo=4
Spotify | https://open.spotify.com/show/6CAKbXFiIOhoHinzsReYbJ
Amazon | https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/3c37179d-3371-47f9-9d97-fd569e8802a7/prep-athletics-basketball-podcast #AmazonMusic
Cory Heitz (00:00)
Welcome to this week's episode of the Prep Athletics Podcast. I'm proud to have joining me coach John Zall from Vermont Academy. And have a great conversation today because we talk about John's background of coaching at the D2 level, the D3 level, high school, and then working in the NBA for a season. Great intel on that. He shares what it's like to go to Vermont Academy, the competition there being AAA and the NEPSAC, what post-grads do academically, reclassing versus not.
what it takes to be a D1 guard, which is a question we always ask, and much, much more. So John is a great interview, shows a lot of good information here. So thanks for tuning in and hope you enjoy the podcast.
Cory Heitz (01:06)
John, welcome to the podcast.
John Zall (01:08)
Thanks for having me.
Cory Heitz (01:09)
So where did you grow up and how'd you get into coaching?
John Zall (01:13)
So I'm from Lynn Mass, which is about 30 minutes north of Boston. It's decent sized city, about 100,000 people. And I grew up playing basketball my whole life. I kind of fell in love with it when I was a kid and ended up going to college at Northeastern, which is their mid-major division one. So I wasn't that good. So I was fortunate to kind of start my coaching career then. And after a few stops, it led me here to Vermont Academy.
Cory Heitz (01:42)
Yeah. Now you mentioned a few stops. You've coached high school D2, D3, MBA. So you've got a pretty good background there that you're bringing to Vermont Academy. I want to go through each one of those levels and kind of figure it out, figure out from you what specifically you learned. So starting at D3 at Trinity, like what did you take away from there? being at the D3 level.
John Zall (02:02)
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, when you're when you're at those when you're at the Division three level where there isn't scholarships attached to it, you know, you really have to be make sure you're being selective when you're when you're recruiting your roster. I was fortunate to, you know, work for a great head coach, you know, James Cosgrove. They went to the final four last year at Trinity. They were like 30 and two, 30 and three or something. So.
You know, they kind of already had the blueprint and everything rolling. So I, you know, I just tried to fit in the best one I got there. But it's so important that, you know, you're finding kids at that level who love to play basketball, who it's really important to, who they want to work hard because, you know, at the end of the day, is Division III. Trinity is an unbelievable school. You know, the alums go on to do great things. So, you know, if a kid doesn't really love it, you know, they're going to get to their sophomore year and go, well.
I'm just going to hang out and I want to do an internship and I want to start making a lot of money and that's awesome. But you can't just go replace them. You don't have a scholarship. You can't take it from them and go find someone else. So you got to really make sure that you're finding the right kids. Coach has done a great job there since he's been there.
Cory Heitz (03:14)
When you were at Trinity, was that one of those D3 teams that would have like 20 players on the roster? Or did you keep it pretty trim?
John Zall (03:20)
No, no, we, you know, we, tried to bring in probably, you know, three, four kids every year. And, you know, we would have walk-ons and stuff that, you know, maybe would push our roster to 16 or 17. But for the most part, you know, the guys playing, you know, we would be right around that, that 14, 15, you know, Mark, you know, I know that some schools in that league, you know, right around COVID, they did start really pushing their rosters bigger because you had kids who were doing their fifth year and
So there's really five classes on the roster as opposed to your normal four.
Cory Heitz (03:53)
Gotcha. And then, you know, you're at Franklin Pierce D2 school. What'd you learn at that level?
John Zall (04:00)
So I mean, that was my first, you know, really, you know, job in college coaching. So, you know, I learned everything there. You know, I learned how to recruit. I learned how talented you had to be, how well coached the other programs are, you know, scouting, you know, travel, all those sorts of things, scheduling, you know, everything that goes into being a college, a college program. And, you know, they're
They do have scholarships there, right? So, you the kids are on full scholarship. And so, you know, that that brings a whole other complexity to it. And so, you know, you have to make sure that that, you know, the kids are able to compete and that they're also good kids and, you know, and that they're able to handle that, you know, that league and, you know, that league has been, you know, terrific forever. And, you know, now kids are starting to transfer out of that league to Division one. And you're seeing the success that they've had.
that they're having at Division I. And there were many of your kids that, you know, every spring our office phone would get a call from probably every low Division I program trying to sell us some kid that's not playing for them and how good it'll be for us. And, you know, those kids would come work out or they'd end up in the league somewhere and, you know, they would struggle and they'd realize, you know, how talented the players are. So it was an unbelievable opportunity. I worked for another long time head coach, David Chaborn, who...
recently left there a couple years ago and just learned a ton. I've been really, really fortunate.
Cory Heitz (05:21)
All right, you get there, you've not coached before and you've got to go recruit. Right. So the first time you either pick up a phone or go to a gym, did your head coach like give you the rundown on how to recruit or did you have to kind of figure that out on your own through trial and error?
John Zall (05:34)
Yeah, I he was great because he just kind of let let me go a little bit. You know, he kind of, you know, I started by emailing all the prep school coaches. This is back in the day. You know, these these guys have it so easy. You know, I put our schedule on Twitter. You just go to our Twitter. Everyone else puts their schedule on Twitter and it's a daily update. I mean, you used to have to email the coaches and then follow up and do all this stuff. So, you know, I just kind of ended up going going to gyms and kind of learning about, you know,
Cory Heitz (05:43)
Yeah.
John Zall (06:02)
Who's recruiting this kid? Where is he going? How are we trying to play? What is the positions that we're looking for? And if it was someone serious, God bless Coach Jaborn. He would always get in his car and go see someone. And there were a couple of times he joke about it. He said, no way. And sometimes you find a good player that ends up fitting. And I think the longer you do this, and now I've been recruiting now for.
And probably over 10 years is you just kind of form this role of Dex in your head of, I remember watching that kid play at high school or prep school. He ended up going here. He had success. He didn't have success because of X, Y, Z. And you start kind of forming these opinions and you have this reserve of knowledge just from being around it. And I'm always trying to keep up with with all those leagues, too. And, you know, see where kids from our league, you know, now in the NEPSAC that we're competing against.
Where are they ending up? How successful are they? Are they playing? Where did they go? Did they transfer? Why did they transfer? So I think when you're doing it for a little bit, you're fortunate because you do kinda gain that experience and you start to figure out where kids fit and where they can be successful.
Cory Heitz (07:17)
Absolutely. Now, your first time recruiting a player is probably different than after doing it for as many years as you did. What makes a good college recruiter? What skill did you start incorporating after doing it for so many years that you might not have done at the beginning?
John Zall (07:30)
I think it's just information gathering. know, I think, you know, obviously you want good players, right? That's probably the easiest thing to find, right? You just watch the game, especially now. mean, every game these kids play is online. If you can't make it, every kid has highlights from, mean, they'll play a weekend AAU tournament and there'll be weekend highlights on their Twitter. So evaluating the good players and finding who's actually good is not hard.
You know, then you have to start digging into the other stuff, right? You know, are they a good kid? Are they a hard worker? Do they want to be good? You know, what is their family situation like? You know, who else is involved in their life? You know, who else is recruiting them? Right. Do you have the opportunity to get them? You know, when you're at the division three level, know, Trinity is really fortunate. You know, they meet 100 % of financial need. But, you know, that's not for everyone either. Right. So, you know, is this
family ready to pay money to go to school or are they just going to basically take the cheapest deal they could find. And so I think just gathering information as much as you can is beneficial. And even now, you you might try to take a shortcut or, you know, try to do something without really knowing all the facts. And it usually does come back to bite you. So I think that that's always important, you know, when recruiting.
Cory Heitz (08:46)
So you, yeah.
So you gather more information. Did your pitch or like your conversations with kids change over that time?
John Zall (08:53)
I don't really think so. No, I think it's just all about finding the kids that will fit your program and fit your school. You you start to develop, hey, these kids are successful. These kids have a good experience at your school as a whole. These kids have a good experience in your program. know, and you know, also too, you know, now that I'm a head coach before I was recruiting for other head coaches, you know, my bosses, you know, would they enjoy coaching this person, right? Do their values align with their, you know, that's the
Cory Heitz (08:59)
Gotcha.
John Zall (09:22)
Prospects values aligned with the head coach's values and because you see a lot of that sometimes you know a coach will recruit a kid and their best skill is X in that program doesn't really value that and then the kid doesn't have a good experience and it's like well Yeah, because they can shoot and you know the team averages 61 points a game and they want to grind you out defensively or or vice versa or whatever it may be and You know this person's a big and they want to play five guards and so you know, whatever it may be
I think understanding what works and who's successful is probably the most important thing.
Cory Heitz (09:55)
Yeah. So now in your seat as a prep school coach at Vermont Academy, when these coaches start talking to your kids, I'm sure you've got a good position to figure out like, can translate almost for the kids. Like, Hey, he said this, this is what this means. you explain that a little bit more to families that are watching this right now, like how you can help in their recruiting process with like when coaches are recruiting the kid, what it all means.
John Zall (10:17)
Yeah, I mean, that's probably over half the job now is trying to figure out what these guys mean, what they're actually thinking, what they're doing most of the time. And maybe sometimes I think we're actually helping them think through it themselves. But I think that's just the big thing, especially when you have older guys on your team, you have a fifth year senior, you have a post grad, you have guys who, if they're not committed that last year, times...
Cory Heitz (10:24)
Right.
John Zall (10:44)
Time's moving and so you're trying to make sure you're getting to the bottom and you know, you're not, you're not getting a kid's hopes up or you're not wasting a coach's time, you know, if a kid doesn't want to go there. And so just trying to figure out where everyone is in the process and getting everyone on the same page. And, you know, I've always just kind of believed to on honesty is a good thing. And, you know, I try to do my best when I make a phone call to a coach to make sure that I'm calling them about someone who can play at their level or not even play at their level impact their level.
Right. cause you know, if I don't, then next time I call for XYZ kid, know, they're not gonna, they're not going to pick the phone up, you know, or, or, you know, vice versa. If a kid doesn't want to go to a school or, know, for whatever reason, that's not their level. They don't want to go far from home, you know, making sure that they're, you know, handling it the best way that they can. so that, that coach in that program will want to come back and recruit a kid in the future.
And you know, so we're not wasting their time. And so I think it's just always good to over communicate and try to figure out and get everyone on the same page.
Cory Heitz (11:44)
Yeah, love it. Now you did D3, high school D2, and you also did a year in the NBA in player development. Tell us about that experience and what you took away from it.
John Zall (11:54)
I mean, the NBA is is was is amazing. You know, it really is the best players in the world. You know, their work ethic, their intelligence, their the way that they go about things. I mean, it's just incredible to be around on a day to day basis. And, you know, the coaches are most of them are terrific, too. And you and you learn a lot. And I love the NBA. I still have a lot of good friends there and I still follow it.
you know, and, and I, you know, I probably could have continued, but I probably could have continued in a space that, you know, I didn't really want to be. And I had never done anything like that where you were on a staff and you were like, you know, one of 20 people, you know, I had always been on a staff where I was, you know, one of two, one of three people, and you can really have an impact and you can really develop as a coach. And I think that's where I've been fortunate is, you know, I've been in these places and
Cory Heitz (12:40)
Alright.
John Zall (12:49)
Where you get to do things right? You know where you get to just you get to go in your car and just go to a gym and recruit You know you get to go to a you tournament you get to watch high school games And you know I've been so fortunate, and that's how you kind of start building You know I guess your skills as a coach and so I learned so much in the NBA And I just kind of you know I just kind of thought about you know where do I want to go how long is this going to take and?
So I was really fortunate that I was able to go to Trinity and that was actually my first full-time coaching job. And I was able to kind of get back on the road and do all that stuff. it ended up leading me to here. But the NBA is really unique.
Cory Heitz (13:30)
Yeah. And mind you about every player you talk to and every player I talked to eventually wants to get there, which I love the dream, but tell me this. What did those guys possess that maybe the average public doesn't realize?
John Zall (13:41)
Yeah, I mean, you you just, you're just not getting there. You know, you're just, it's, those guys are so good. It's, it's, it's almost like unreal, you know? And, and, you know, it's funny. The other day, our guys were joking about, Raymond Felton. So Raymond felt, you know, won a national championship at North Carolina top, you know, 10 recruit, 20 recruit, 10, 15 year NBA player. And he's kind of like a punchline in the NBA. He was on the maps when I was there, you know, first off, he's an unbelievable guy.
I mean, I can't, I can't even begin to describe how good he is at basketball. I can't even describe that to the average person. And, and, so, yeah, it's, it's, you don't want to crush dreams and, know, again, you know, certain guys find roles for certain teams and certain coaching staffs and all that. And you see it all the time and, certain, you know, organizations are better at developing guys than others, but
You know, to be at that level and play and make an impact for, you know, multiple years. mean, you are, you have it all. You have it all. It's, it's, it's special. And that's the reason why they get paid so much money and it's so hard to get there. And, you know, they, they, they work like they do because there's nothing like it.
Cory Heitz (14:55)
Fill me in, what's the punchline on him? I'm out of the zeitgeist on that one.
John Zall (14:59)
Well, think everyone, you you see stuff on social media and you know, he was a little overweight and everyone thinks he stinks and he's got some big contracts and supposedly he didn't live up to it. And so, I mean, you know, I think people think like he's bad or something. And it's like, you know, you have, you know, so when I was there, I was fortunate because we have kind of an older team, a mature team we had, you know, it was Dirks really last year being good. We had Darren Williams, Chandler Parsons, Zaza Abidjulia.
Cory Heitz (15:09)
Gotcha.
John Zall (15:27)
Devin Harris, JJ Burea, Raymond Felton. We acquired David Lee halfway through the year. So I mean, just to, mean, those guys, I mean, watching Darren Williams play basketball every day, was like, it was like he was an alien. know, he just, the way his body moved, the things he could do, how effortless he played, his knowledge of the game and understanding. And I mean, they're just so special. They're just so special. And then when you're there,
Cory Heitz (15:43)
Mm-hmm.
John Zall (15:55)
you're at the games and all the rest of the league comes through too. So now you're watching these guys from, you know, 20 feet away, you know, you're, John Walls and you're Kevin Durant and you're Russell Westbrooks and Steph Curry. And it's just like, you know, Kyrie Irving. mean, when you've seen these people in real life and you're like, you know, you think you've seen a good point guard and you watch Kyrie Irving play and you're like, well, kid really can't do anything. you know, those, those guys are, those guys are, you know, those guys for a reason.
Cory Heitz (16:18)
Right.
Right, I think it's easier to get struck by lightning twice than making it to the NBA, so.
John Zall (16:28)
It's crazy. we had a kid here for the previous three years who's top 10 kid in the country. at Arizona State now. And he's in some mock drafts. And who knows where his career is going to go. he is so talented. And he's a crazy hard worker. He's a really good person. And it's just hard. It's hard. There's a lot of luck involved. And it's the.
opportunity and go into the right organization that values what he does. And it's, it's, it's tricky. It's tricky. And, you know, it's, it's, it's hard for anyone to kind of bank on that, you know,
Cory Heitz (17:03)
Absolutely. tell us about Vermont Academy as a school and as a basketball program. Give us your pitch.
John Zall (17:08)
Yeah, I mean, to be honest with you, we don't I don't try to do a ton of pitching. You know, I kind of just try to tell people this is what it is. Right. I mean, this is exactly what it's going to be. And, you know, we're a small school. You know, we're about 230 kids now. You know, we've been around, you know, and I have this I say this to all of our post grads. We are a real school. We've been around for almost 150 years. There's classrooms and dorm rooms and a gym and a campus and there's a calf and, you know,
15 kids playing the team and 230 go here. you know, this isn't just we live in a house and we play basketball all day and you know, we play 70 games. And so, you know, just trying to find kids who fit, you know, this place who understand, you know, what being here entails and, you know, playing at the level that we play at against the programs and the players that we play against and who want that challenge, who want to push themselves, who
Cory Heitz (17:43)
Yes.
John Zall (18:04)
want to get better, who have a goal, who have a vision. I think that's kind of more of what we look for. And, you know, we only have one team here too. So, you know, I tell families all the time, you know, we can't hide you here. You know, every kid that we try to recruit, I recruit them with the understanding that they're going to contribute and make an impact in our program at some point before they leave. You know, so if it's a post-grad, I mean, they got to be ready to go right away. And, you know, we don't have a lot of post-grads.
you know, in our program at one time this year, we have the most we've ever had. have six, you know, last year we had four in my first two years. We've only had two. So, you know, you know, this is, it's gotta be the right fit and they gotta be, they gotta want to embrace this and want to embrace this challenge. And so, you know, we just kind of lay it out for them, right. And, know, you mentioned our background in college. I think in college, you
you probably recruit a little bit more, right? Cause it kids in high school, the prospects in high school and they have to go to college, right? They are going to college here a lot of times, like they don't have to come to prep school, right? So, you know, they could easily just, if they graduate, go to college or they could easily, if they're still in high school looking to reclass, they could easily just stay at their high school. so I think understanding that and knowing exactly who we are is, really, really important.
Cory Heitz (19:07)
Great.
All right. Now let me ask you this. You obviously coached at a high academic D3. if you've got players that want to play high academic basketball, Ivies, you know, high academic D3s, did they need to go to a high academic prep school or can they get there from other prep schools like yours, such as Vermont Academy? Like, does it matter what prep school you go to if you want to go high academic college route?
John Zall (19:44)
Well, I guess we're in that boat of a non-high academic. But last year at our school, our students have gotten into, we got kids in the Dartmouth, Amherst, Boston College, Boston University, NYU, Tulane, Northeastern. got two or three kids in there. So our kids are getting into some of the best schools in the world. These are just students, not even including...
Cory Heitz (20:09)
Yeah.
John Zall (20:11)
our athletes. So, you know, we're able to put a competitive schedule, you know, together that I think can rival, you know, any school in the country. And we have the acceptances to prove that. And, you know, we're going to have three former alums in the past two years playing in the Nescahk this year and one in the Patriot League. So, you know, are our schools able to, you know, to stand up to the rigors of one of those schools admissions departments?
Cory Heitz (20:38)
Yeah, John, to me, I'm with you. mean, it doesn't, to me, doesn't matter what school you go to. it's, if an Ivy or Nescahk wants you, they're going to take you no matter what. But some parents have perceptions like I got to go to these certain prep schools to get into these colleges. And I'm constantly trying to debunk that and say, no, it's not, it's not necessary. And, know, you've got a kid in the Ivy league from a pop-up basketball Academy, right? So if that kid can get in there, like it does not matter to me, it's all about right fit. So, let me ask you this.
John Zall (21:06)
And to be honest,
that's great for us too, right? know, parents who want that stuff, we say good luck. Good luck, you know, and they want to go somewhere else and that's the experience they want and that's fine with us. It doesn't bother us, you know, we'll find somebody else. Right.
Cory Heitz (21:11)
Yeah. Yeah.
Just buy for everybody. Yeah. You'll, you'll find
your, you'll find your folks. when a player comes to Vermont Academy, do they have to play other sports or do other activities or can they just focus on basketball?
John Zall (21:28)
So we have our schools broken up into trimesters. And so they do an activity every trimester. So we offer strength and conditioning. You know, our school actually just built a brand new weight room this fall, which it looks nice. You know, there's a part of me that's a little upset about it. You know, our old weight room was really small and it was kind of older, but it had some character. So I'm worried that these guys in this new weight room are feeling a certain kind of way. sometimes we'll go work out in the old weight room. They still send the equipment in there.
so we offer strength and conditioning. They are able to do an independent, you know, if they're, if they're proving that they're doing, you know, other sports outside of that, whether that be, you know, playing, club basketball or, you know, a college strength and conditioning program. you know, and, some of our kids do choose to play other sports, you know, some of them will play tennis in the, in the spring or the golf or, you know, but, but for the most part, you know, they're able to kind of.
still work on the things that they need to work on, you know, and able to get everything done.
Cory Heitz (22:30)
Gotcha. And then you said you have six post-grads this year. what are the academics look like VA for a post-grad?
John Zall (22:35)
So to be honest with you, every post-grad is different, right? And, you know, we had a kid come here last year who needed to take pre-calc. You know, we had a kid who came here last year who took three AP courses. You know, we have kids who are here now who are taking a couple art courses, you know? So I think it's not a one size fits all. I think every kid needs something different. Every kid has different goals and aspirations. So we try to work with those kids individually and make sure that they're
schedule is reflecting what they're hoping to do, you know, the following year.
Cory Heitz (23:09)
Josh, do you guys offer AP and college credits by chance?
John Zall (23:13)
We do. Yeah. Yeah. We, think we, right now we have 15 different AP courses, where kids can sit for the tests in the spring.
Cory Heitz (23:21)
Gotcha, okay. And what do you look for in a player? Like when you're out there recruiting in a gym, like who do you want on your team of Ramon Academy? Like style-wise or character-wise? Like give me your ideal candidate.
John Zall (23:33)
Yeah, I mean, I think I just think the one thing that everything always comes back to is do they love basketball, right? Because if they love basketball, I think everything else will take care of the rest. You know, they'll they'll do the work necessary. You know, they'll do the extra work. They'll behave on campus. They'll become great community members. They'll, you know, engage with their teammates, you know, and you try to find as many kids like that, you know, who love the game, who want to be in the gym, who
you know, they have a free hour. want to go, you know, they can walk to the dorm to the gym in 90 seconds. They go get a lift in, you know, those are the kids who, you know, when you give them a day off, they're texting you going, can we work out? Can you send me a lift? Can you, you know, those are the kids that that we really try to look for because those are the kids that we've we've had success with since I've been able to, to, you know, get here to Vermont Academy. So I think that's just kind of the
first and foremost, mean, obviously I think you need a prerequisite of talent, but I think if you have those other things and you're willing to work for it, and if you're here for enough time, I think that you can compensate for maybe, you know, a smaller size or lack of athleticism or whatever it may be. If you love it and you wanna be good at it, I think that that can overcome everything.
Cory Heitz (24:50)
Yeah, I like that baseline. That's a good one. Can you tell like going to an event, can you tell if someone really loves basketball or do you need to do more digging on that?
John Zall (25:00)
Well, I think it's always, you know, I always the families that go, how often can they get in the gym? Those are usually the kids who don't like basketball, right? Because the kids who need to get in the gym, they're just going to get in the gym. They ain't going to ask me to get in the gym. They're not going to ask me where a ball is or where the gun is or they're just going to get in the gym. Right. And I mean, I think, you know, anytime you see a kid and a kid's really skilled or kids in really good shape or you can tell that, you know, you're at one of their games and they're
Cory Heitz (25:09)
Interesting.
John Zall (25:26)
really focused before their game and they're really into the game and they're, they're really, you know, those are the kids, you know, so, so there's signs, there's for sure signs, you know, you know, families will come and say he's, he lives in the gym and he can't do anything. mean, chances are either he's not doing what he's supposed to be doing or he's not in the gym. So, I think it's, it's usually, it's usually pretty obvious, you know, when they're here and, know, we try to have them talk to our guys and our guys tell them what it's like and.
You know, I tell kids if you love basketball, if you want to challenge yourself and you know, you'll love it here. This will be home. Your teammates, you'll bond for the rest of your life with them and you guys will forge relationships over this common goal. And if you just kind of like it and you just want to be on social media and say you're going to Vermont Academy or you're playing in AAA or you're doing all this stuff, I mean, you're not going to be happy here.
because your teammates are gonna care too much and they're just gonna kind of run you over. So we try to do our best. I've not batted 100%, but we'll try.
Cory Heitz (26:32)
All right. One thing you mentioned was gym time and it's kind of an arms race now among prep schools and more so basketball academies on how much gym time you can get per week, right? And some of these basketball academies will say like, you can get 10 hours in the gym a day. And to me, it's all about quantity versus quality. So walk me through the opportunities kids have at VA to get in the gym.
John Zall (26:52)
Yeah, I mean, we're fortunate here. You we don't have a volleyball team. know, our gym isn't a field house. Our gym is our gym. belongs to us. It belongs to our women's program. almost always, the gym's open. It's open in the morning. It's open during free blocks. It's open after dinner. It's open whenever it is that we're not in there working out or our women's team isn't in there working out.
You know, I tell families, you know, not getting in the not being able to get in the gym will not be an excuse for not being good here. It just doesn't exist. And, you know, and you know that things are good when you walk up there to get a workout in yourself or you walk by because you got to go grab something and you see two kids in there shooting or you go walk past the weight room and the kids in there lifting. And so those are when we've been really good and things have been going well, those are always pretty good telltale signs. So gym access is.
always available when you're available. And so yeah, our kids benefit from
Cory Heitz (27:56)
Excellent. Now an underclassman reaches out to you, they're in 10th grade and they're not sure if they want to reclass or not when they come to VA. How do you explain the benefits of reclassing versus not?
John Zall (28:06)
Yeah, I mean, I think again, every situation is different. And I think families, you know, all feel certain kind of ways about the process. And I think explaining it to them, you know, the how it works and how, you know, I think sometimes families think like, you're to take all the same classes again. And, you know, that's not really exactly how it works. So just trying to explain to them everything that it entails, how it can help them.
but ultimately it's the family's decision, right? And, know, and then it also comes down to your decision, right? If do you want a kid for two years or do you want a kid for three years? Do you want a kid for two years? Do you want a kid for one year? You know, so all of these things matter and, know, they, go into how you view them as a player and how much time you have with them. yeah.
Cory Heitz (28:57)
If you don't reclass and you graduate from Vermont Academy, can you stick around and also do a fifth year there? Okay. Some prep schools don't allow that for some reason. I don't know why, but that's good to know. Okay. And that's why in that situation, I didn't know for VA, if you're going to be there for three years, does it make sense to reclass and do 10th, 11th, 12th, or do 11th, 12th post-grad? If a kid had that option, is there one way that's better than the other VA specifically?
John Zall (29:02)
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Yeah, of course.
Yeah
I mean, I always think it's better to be with your class if you know you're going to do it. Now, if a kid needs academic help and we think they're going to need that fifth year, you know, to count for some courses or something, that's a different story. But, you know, every kid we've had here with multiple years of high school eligibility has reclassed. And so, you know, that's kind of what the families have chosen to do. I've never really steered them one way or the other.
I've just tried to explain the benefits and the cons to it and how it all works. And we actually had two kids last year who reclassed back up, who were originally supposed to, one was supposed to be here for four years, one was supposed to be here for three years and they got opportunities in college and they ended up going, which is also great, and bless you. And they did it the right way and we were fortunate to have them for as long as we did.
Cory Heitz (30:21)
Awesome. Now, good. I'm glad you cleared that up because every school is a little bit different with that. And, know, I usually tell families talk to the coach specifically and see what works best for you. So, all right, since COVID, obviously it's harder to get into college. The game has gotten older at the college level, but you have to place your kids still. John, what's your strategy for placing a kid? Are you doing a lot of the work? Are AU coaches, are families taking this on? Like walk me through if my son's coming to Vermont Academy, how the college placement works with your system.
John Zall (30:51)
Yeah, I mean, I think that's one of the first conversations we have with the family, right? Is we're trying to get a sense of what their goals and what their vision is for themselves, right? And I think that, you know, being on the same page with that is really, really important, right? And I think that that's oftentimes what leads to a lot of sour relationships is kid thinks they're ex doesn't end up getting ex. And the next thing, you know, you know, I hated my year there. It was a waste of time, all those sorts of things. So
We really try to do our due diligence. And, you know, we talked about earlier gathering information and we try to do everything we can to put our guys in good situations to be seen. you know, playing at this level, I tell them all the time, this is the best thing you can do. Right. I mean, we've filmed every single game since I've been the head coach here. Everything's on YouTube and college coaches have access to it. And the best part about this is if you play well in one of our games or you're doing good things consistently.
There's no question about who you're playing against, right? That other team has college players. know, most of the teams we play against, they do not put a non-college player on the floor, period. You know, so any success our guys have, they're doing it against their peers who are going to be playing in college. you know, I always do my best. I'm not a big, let's chase the highest thing. I want all of our guys to hopefully have an impact in their first two years, you know, wherever they go.
Cory Heitz (31:50)
Yeah.
John Zall (32:17)
cause I just think that leads to good experiences and Hey, you know, especially now too, kids have a good two years and, and, know, they're, they're off somewhere else. You know, we, we had a kid, who's first team, you know, All America East last year and he's at Boston college now. And so, you know, I think bringing them somewhere where they can have an impact and not just play, you know, cause the program is bad or because they needed that position or whatever it may be.
have an impact and really impact the program. You know, that's always kind of our goal here rather than just let's send you to the highest place so then I can tell the next kid, you went there. I'd much rather tell the next kid what I just told you about, hey, we had a kid who went to college and did well, you know, this past week, we had the NEC Rookie of the Week. You know, these are the things, you know, we had a kid last year who was a first guy off the bench on Division III Final Four team. know, those are things that...
Cory Heitz (32:53)
Right.
John Zall (33:12)
we like telling families, rather than, yeah, yeah, they went to an SEC school, but they don't play and they transferred down. so, great.
Cory Heitz (33:21)
Gotcha. Now, obviously your AAA, you kind of mentioned the benefits of going up against teams where every player on it is a college player, but I want you to put your college hat back on and assume you're back at Franklin Pierce or Trinity. If you like a player, does it matter if he's playing single A, double A or triple A or even B in NEPPSEC?
John Zall (33:39)
Well, I mean, as the coach of Vermont Academy, I'm supposed to say yes, right? It does matter. You want to be playing AAA. But I think, you know, I think again, it's all relative, right? And I think the benefits of, you know, our schedule and being at a place like this is, you know, we have 33 games scheduled this year and I'd say, you know, 27 of them, 26 of them are going to be against schools where we won't play against a non-college player, right? So that's, that's the benefit of, of
Cory Heitz (34:06)
Mm-hmm.
John Zall (34:08)
being at our level, right? It's opportunity, it's competition. You're playing at their gym on the road. It's like, college coach, I was talking to him recently and I was like, our guys aren't gonna be scared. You go to St. Thomas more and you have 12 rebounds. I mean, there ain't a harder place to do it than there. So, I think.
Cory Heitz (34:10)
Yeah.
All
John Zall (34:29)
I think those experiences and being able to put that on film or do it in front of people is just so valuable. And in those other levels, I mean, I'm friends with so many of those guys. They're unbelievable coaches. run unbelievable programs. And it just might be a little different in terms of just the consistency and the depth.
Cory Heitz (34:50)
Gotcha. What do you see as the future of prep school basketball?
John Zall (34:53)
That's a great question. You know, I think things have changed so much the past few years with with NIL and you know, and now kids getting a lot of NIL in high school and I don't know where our schools go with that. Right. You know, I always think that we should lean into being schools. I think that that's that's our benefit. Right. And I think that's the market that we're going to have. And there's going to be plenty of really good players who want in their families who want
that experience, right? They want a boarding school. They want to prepare for college. They want to set roots down and be at a school for multiple years and make relationships and have an alumni network and all those things. So, you know, I think that that's kind of, that should be our future, you know, and not only just the Napsack, but, you know, the schools in Virginia, the schools in Pennsylvania.
You know, the schools in New Jersey, I think that that's, that's our strength. but where it's going, I mean, who knows, who knows, you know, we, we, we have no idea, know, does USA basketball, does the NBA, does someone intervene at some point and, know, develop, you know, have a developmental model similar to European soccer. You know, everyone keeps saying that hasn't happened yet or appear close. And so Nike, think it tried it and doesn't really seem it. And so.
I think that's the benefit of our league maybe compared to that league is every team we play is good. We don't have to get on a plane to play for good teams. We just get in a bus or get in a van and we can drive less than an hour away and play a really good program with really good players and really good coach. So yeah, we're really lucky.
Cory Heitz (36:36)
Yeah, you've got the NBA, you've got Nike, you've got the academies, the overtime is kind of popping up. And I see the top players may be looking at that more to potentially take advantage of NIL, but personally with, you know, the league on ESPN, it's got prep schools on it. just the social media around it. think the prep school game, just getting more and more attention, not only outside of New England, but around the globe. So to me, you you might not have as many marquee names.
In the new England world or the prep school world, but you will have more and more solid players coming that are smart, that are interesting, that brings something to a school. So my personal opinion, John, like, the top players might have more options. It might go straight to the league here in the near future, but the game's only going to get stronger and you're going to have a tougher time. think just picking which players you're going to want in your program, you know, which is a good problem to have. So we'll see if that comes true or not. No crystal ball, but I think it's trending upward in a big direction.
John Zall (37:29)
Yeah, and we're like, you you watch those games on TV. I mean, we play a college game here. We play a 40 minute game. We have the NCAA three point line on our gym floor. We have a 30 second shot clock, the restricted arc. You know, this isn't, we're not playing a high school game. And so, you know, that's, that's the other thing about playing at our level is, you know, you need depth, right? You know, if you're playing a 32 minute game and, you know, you can play your three best players the whole game. You're playing quarters. get, you get.
Cory Heitz (37:34)
That's right.
That's right.
John Zall (37:56)
you know, three automatic breaks and halftime and you know, your players can play the whole game. It's really hard. I mean, we had, we had 2000 point scores on our team last year. You know, one of them average, I think 30 minutes, the other average 28, you know, and so that's, that's minutes up for grabs. If, if this was a regular high school, 32 minutes, those guys were coming out of the game, you know? So I think it's, it's, just a little bit different.
Cory Heitz (38:13)
Right.
All right, John, last question for you here. What does it take to play at the D1 level and be a guard? Like what do need to possess?
John Zall (38:24)
I mean, I just think the big thing now is just probably shot making. You know, most of the guys who are division one guards for the most part, they're they're they're really, really good shot makers. You know, now the guys will, you know, if the kid can make shots, then they'll tell you he's too small. Then you'll show him a bigger guard and then they'll say he can't make shots. So but I always think that those two things are probably the.
you know, the top two, you know, being able to make shots and then, which I'm gonna call it, you know, having good positional size. I think that those are always kind of the two, you know, those are two things to lean on most of the time.
Cory Heitz (39:03)
All right. A couple of quick hitters here before we finish up. Who's the best player you've coached against in the prep school world.
John Zall (39:09)
Man, that's a really really good question.
What's the next question? I'm going to think about this. I want to give a good answer. I want to give a good answer.
Cory Heitz (39:14)
Favorite movie, lot easier.
Favorite movie.
John Zall (39:19)
Favorite movie. I don't know. I don't want I don't want I don't watch a lot of movies I like to remember remember the Titans. Is that does that count? but But best player we we we played against It might have been Elmarco Jackson Elmarco Jackson from South Kent. He was there for a year two years ago. They won triple-a He was he was terrific
Cory Heitz (39:26)
Yeah. You're not getting graded on this. This is, this is all fun.
John Zall (39:45)
Thomas Hall at Perky Omen, who's at Florida now is really good. Luke Hunger at Northfield Mount Herman, who's at Northwestern, he was really good. know, Keishon Tillery, who's at New Hampton now, he's really, really hard to play against. But there's just so, you know, it's funny because you're asking this question because there's just so many random kids who you're like, yo, you know, that kid's not a high major player. Like, you know, we played St. Thomas more last year. They had this kid, Isaiah Pasha, who's at Delaware now. I mean,
He was it was probably the hardest game we had a guard all year last year and it's just like there's just so many kids who back to the depth of our level who are like Under the radar or their recruitment's not where it is And you know, we had a kid scored 30 points against us last year was at Division three right now He just won he just won rookie of the week and it's just like, you know There's just these kids are good. These kids are good and to be successful here It's it's you know, you got to be able to bring it so For sure
Cory Heitz (40:32)
Yeah.
All right, last last quick hitter. What's your hobbies when you're not coaching?
John Zall (40:43)
Well, you I told you we the only reason I finally went on the show is because the book you sent my son, I have a six month old son and you sent him this book that like plays music. And my wife says to me, like, he loves this book. And, you know, the book seems really complicated. So luckily my wife deals with it. But so, you know, I have a six month old son now and these are kind of my hobbies. I have the team and I have my family and that's that's kind of.
kind of where it dies. So that's good enough though. That's good enough. That's kind all you really need.
Cory Heitz (41:18)
You've got a ski jump at Vermont Academy, will you ever go off it? I know, but still, people unofficially must go down it, right?
John Zall (41:22)
So the ski jumps actually closed. It
used to be Olympic regulations. I've never skied or snowboarded a second in my life. So I wouldn't even know where to begin. It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. I don't know why when it's cold, you'd want to go outside. It also seems really dangerous to go in that fast. So it's kind of nearly never been for me. It's also expensive. So those are like my three no's.
Cory Heitz (41:33)
Okay.
John Zall (41:48)
but people love it. So, God bless them. we don't use our Hill a lot. We, we partner with Mount snow. We have like a ski academy that we, that we partner with this little plug for Vermont academy. we're one of the only schools I think in the world that, that is partnered with an actual ski academy where kids can live there. you know, for a trimester and still, attend Vermont academy and we have teachers there and everything. So we don't use this Hill a lot. the jump is still cool. I assume that's probably why they haven't taken it down, but
It's never been used, I think, for a while.
Cory Heitz (42:19)
What about for uphill conditioning? ever thought about that?
John Zall (42:22)
So they do, that's part of strength and condition and they do run, there's a hill next to that and they do run that. Those are big hills and then we have some smaller hills off one of our fields, you know, up behind it. So they run a lot of hills. is great. Our strength and conditioning coach does an unbelievable job with them and really gets them ready.
Cory Heitz (42:25)
cool.
Perfect. Is there anything we didn't touch on today that you want to mention before we go?
John Zall (42:48)
No, has been great. I'm happy that we finally have gotten it in. I feel like sometimes you'll look at our schedule and you'll ask me, I think last time you asked me it was like one of our playoff games. You do not want to be talking to me on that day. And you asked for this Friday where we also have a game. So today was good though. Today was good. I really, really appreciate it. I appreciate everything you do for our sport and for our schools too. I think that you promote our schools and
You give our schools a good name, you add some legitimacy to it. So we really, really appreciate it. Yeah.
Cory Heitz (43:24)
I appreciate that. Where can people find you, John?
John Zall (43:27)
so our, our account, have a Twitter and an Instagram. I'm probably better on Twitter acts, whatever it's called. It's Vermont, a cad hoop. That's both the Twitter and the Instagram. and we try to update our program as much as possible. What our alums are doing, when we have games, the results of our games, what our current players are doing. We try to do everything under the sun.
on our social media accounts that we can. There will not be cool graphics. There won't be any clip art or anything like that. It's just gonna be information.
Cory Heitz (44:03)
Got it. Well, John, thanks so much for coming on the podcast today and sharing about your background and Vermont Academy and good luck this season.
John Zall (44:11)
Thanks, appreciate it.
Cory Heitz (44:13)
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