PREP Athletics Basketball Podcast
PREP Athletics Basketball Podcast
Inside ESPN’s 30 for 30: Director John Dorsey on Marinovich, SMU, and Documentary Making
In our latest episode, we dive deep into the fascinating world of documentary filmmaking with John Dorsey, the acclaimed director behind ESPN’s 30 for 30 classics “The Marinovich Project” and “Pony Excess.” From his early days at Propaganda Films alongside legendary directors like David Fincher and Spike Jonze to his work on Johnny Cash’s iconic “Hurt” music video, John shares incredible stories from his remarkable career. We explore the delicate art of documentary storytelling, discussing how he convinced the reclusive Todd Marinovich to participate in his film and navigated challenging interviews with Marv Marinovich. John also offers unique perspective as an SMU alum who witnessed firsthand the aftermath of the football program’s death penalty, providing thoughtful commentary on how college athletics has evolved over the decades. Whether you’re an aspiring filmmaker, sports enthusiast, or simply love great storytelling, this episode offers invaluable insights into the craft of documentary filmmaking and the changing landscape of sports media.
📌 Key Points:
✅ John reveals his journey from aspiring law student to acclaimed filmmaker, crediting his film school experience and mentorship under directors like Barry Levinson
✅ We discuss the meticulous preparation and emotional intelligence required to conduct meaningful documentary interviews
✅ John shares behind-the-scenes details of working on Johnny Cash’s “Hurt” video at the historic House of Cash
✅ We explore his current project on esports, where he’s working to challenge preconceptions about competitive gaming
✅ The conversation covers the evolving landscape of college athletics, comparing past scandals to today’s NIL era
🗒️ About John Dorsey:
John Dorsey is a veteran filmmaker whose career spans multiple decades in both documentary and music video production. He worked at the legendary Propaganda Films alongside directors like David Fincher and Spike Jonze, contributing to iconic projects like Johnny Cash’s “Hurt” video. His documentary work includes the acclaimed ESPN 30 for 30 films “The Marinovich Project” and “Pony Excess,” as well as “Glory Hounds,” a powerful documentary about military working dogs in Afghanistan.
🔗 Connect with John Dorsey:
Website | https://ten100tv.com/
IMDB | https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1174236/
LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/johndorseyten100/
🔗 Connect with Cory:
Website | https://www.prepathletics.com
Twitter | https://twitter.com/PREP_Athletics
Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/prep.athletics/
Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/PrepAthletics
Email | coryheitz@gmail.com
Phone | 859-317-1166
🔖 Subscribe to the PREP Athletics Podcast:
iTunes | https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/prep-athletics-podcast/id1546265809?uo=4
Spotify | https://open.spotify.com/show/6CAKbXFiIOhoHinzsReYbJ
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Cory Heitz (00:00)
Welcome to this week's episode of the Prep Athletics podcast. I am proud to have 30 for 30 director, John Dorsey on the podcast. Now John works in the same industry as my wife, Josie documentaries. And he actually lives in Evergreen, our hometown and wanted to get him on because he did two of the two of the best 30 for 30s pony excess, which is about the SMU football scandal in the early eighties. And then the Marinovich project about Todd Marinovich and how his dad was pretty maniacal and training him.
to become the best quarterback in the country. And then it led ultimately to drug use and getting kicked out of the NFL and a really good one there. We go into his background and I found out he worked on the Johnny Cash Hurt video, which was one of the best music videos of all time. He gives us insight on that. And we talk about the difference between being a producer, a director, and more about the film industry and how to get into it and what his background was. Near the end, have a woodpecker join us.
knocking on that wall behind me and causing a little bit of a ruckus so you'll enjoy that. And also we're going to put this at the beginning but it's an ask. If you guys like this, be sure to subscribe to the YouTube channel and be sure to go to prepathletics.com to sign up for our newsletter where every month you'll get the latest updates in the prep school world, signings, information, videos, podcasts, etc. etc. So thank you so much for tuning in today and enjoy this interview with director John Dorsey.
Cory Heitz (01:46)
John, welcome to the podcast. Hey Cory, thanks for having me. Yeah. Now you are in filmmaking and whatnot, but let's go back to the beginning. What, where did you get your interest in film and producing and stuff that shows up on TV and the movie screens?
Well, I mean, think I shared the same origin story as most people, which is that like everyone, was, you know, moved by things that I thought were cool that I had seen, but never thought that there was a road to actually doing it. I just thought it was the domain of people who had access to pathways that I didn't have. And midway through college,
I was accumulating a bunch of electives really that just were telling me something. I thought I was going to go to law school and I was like a history major and whatever. And so I took out a second major. just realized, Hey, I'm like, like three quarters of the way there already. And I took out a fifth year of school rather than go to graduate school. took a fifth year out of school at the undergrad level.
that ended up being almost like a conservatory like experience because I didn't have any other classes that final year other than film classes. So it was like a compressed graduate school in that respect and that it was highly concentrated and it was a preview of the rest of my life which was that it wasn't like work. You know what I mean? I mean, I just kind of like.
didn't dread getting up in the morning to go to class. you know, just like now I don't really dread getting up in the morning and going to work. So yeah. Is film school, are you watching movies and discussing them? Are you going out in the field making your own shorts? Walk me through it. In case, it was a lot of theory. In my case, was a theory sounds like you're breaking something apart, like in a mathematical way. You know, you're it was a lot of.
discussion about techniques and motifs and things that are playing at a subconscious level that you think are happening, but like you, need someone else to ratify that that's really what's happening and that there's intentionality behind it. Right. And then you're like, yeah, okay. And then you feel like you have a grasp of a mindset for, you know, it just doesn't seem as mysterious. And so
There was a lot of a lot of that a lot of watching movies that I would normally have been exposed to and discussing them and seeing them in their proper context as they related to the times in which they were made not just in the United States but elsewhere. And in a way it was like traveling without moving. I mean you you're watching all of these different cultures on display with the mirror of the filmmaking process held up to them.
and the time and place in which they were created. it's kind of, you know, it's exciting. And now, you know, I do the same thing. I kind of open up windows to worlds that might be far away for other people that kind of dip their toe into. So, yeah, did the theory help you with your filmmaking or is it more getting out and practicing and doing on your own or did they both work in conjunction with each other? Well, it makes you more confident to kind of know that you have a vocabulary, but
But some of that vocabulary comes from experience in terms of, you know, knowing how to apply certain things to a given set of circumstances. And some of that confidence comes from.
having or some of that vocabulary rather comes from and the confidence that comes from that vocabulary comes from just being fluent and knowing that you're fluent in kind of like what's been done before. And then, you know, the old kind of cliche of like every artist is a cannibal and every poet is a thief type of thing. You're you're you're early on you're referencing and maybe doing, you know, what's charitably
considered an homage and then certain over time, those things that you reference in your own work become more kind of there's a synthesis more with not so much ripping something off so much as kind of, you know, executing something that's been inspired by or that you've absorbed fully into your own kind of vocabulary. So, you know, and I also had
I also had some mentors early on that I got to sit and watch. So some of it was like what I watched in the classroom. My classroom also was kind of watching these mentors do what they did, like up close and personal for years. So I worked for Barry Levinson, who, you know, in the sports context, people might know did the natural, but he also did like Rain Man and Good Morning, Vietnam and Diner and...
I worked on Wag the Dog, people remember that movie. And so watching someone who was considered kind of a master of their craft make decisions on the fly, you know, what to make a big deal out of and what not to make a big deal out of was informative. And then I had another experience where I worked at this company called Propaganda Films, which was
I think there's a documentary about that place. was really kind of a salon of the late nineties, mid the nineties, zeitgeist of music video making where in the same building, this one little building, was David Fincher, Michelle Gondry, Simon West, Spike Jones, Mark Romanek.
I mean, you go down the list, it was just a really heady environment where ideas were just being, I mean, every day there was a new production. Every day someone was kind of one-upping the director next door. And it was a really healthy environment to watch kind of a competitive exchange of ideas going on. And so I think all those things really are.
experiences that I subconsciously, not even unconscious level kind of apply every day and just make me feel more confident, know? got your reps in. just like athlete would have. Yeah. Exactly. I would watch that propaganda documentary cause those guys are some big time names there who most of them went on to make big time films too. Absolutely. Yeah. They're like, it's like, it was all under one roof. So it was very, very cool music video of all time. And he stand out.
sure. well, I worked on the Johnny Cash hurt video. your kid. That gives you goosebumps watching that one. Yeah. So that's probably up there. I have a lot of, I have a lot of, music documentaries that really kind of like, to me are the, the, gold standard for like how music is conveyed in a visual.
format, you know, and have been touchstones for me. But I'd say in music video for sure hurts up there. Well, hurt. mean, that's not one I'm a huge Trent Reznor fan one. So two is to hear Johnny sing it. But what took that song in the next level, obviously, was the video. And actually my wife and I, I think maybe two months ago, pulled it up on YouTube just to see it again. At the end, we both just had goosebumps, which is amazing when a music video, right? Which some of those are just throwaways for some people.
can do that. So you worked on a historical video there, John. Well, I mean, in the process, I mean, this isn't about me, but except that I had a again, just in terms of having a window into, you know, someone's a master's process. That was Mark Romanek, who was directing that, who did a ton of great music videos. did Are You Going to Go My Way by Lenny Kravitz. He did Nine Inch Nails Closer. He did Nine Inch Nails Perfect Drug. He did Rain by Madonna. He did Michael and Janet Jackson Scream.
I can go down the Becks, Devil's haircut. Just go down the list. But in that case, it was really instructive moment because we went down to the House of Cash, which was the museum that was supposed to be the repository of Johnny Cash's archive. And we were going in there thinking, well, Johnny Cash is a legend. It's going to be it's going to be this really slick, well-maintained
place that's a lot of TLC is, you know, on display can taking care of the place. And instead it was in decay. And rather than be disappointed by that, just we used it as an, serendipitous opportunity that was completely in lockstep with the theme of the music, which was this kind of empire and decay, right? What have I become my empire of dirt?
Right. And so now it was an eerie parallel that was, not planned, but taken advantage of. Yeah. love that. Let's fast forward to your 30 for thirties. And you did one of my favorite to Marinovich project. Walk us through this. Like I get this living in a household with a filmmaker, but for those out there listening to this, that don't know how it works, you get the task of telling Tom Marinovich story. All right.
How do you as a director slash producer figure out like archive footage, who are gonna interview, where are we gonna interview them? Where do you start with that?
Well, at the top, the big thing was kind of coaxing him out of the shadows. I mean, like he was this JD Salinger like figure that was had entered into the mythology and no one knew where he was. And we found him. And everyone knew he had a drug problem, but he had by the time that we found him, he was newly, freshly sober, but his sobriety was pretty fragile given, you know, recently he had made the turn. And he was basically
cleaning barnacles off the bottom of boats in South Bay in California and had rightly built up a lot of scar tissue in relation to his dealings with the media because he was, know, no sooner had they built him up to be this mythological figure than they were, you know, all too happy to tear him down. And he felt like he was just all the while an unwilling piece of cannon fodder for the media.
from really the cradle to the end of his career. And so getting him to revisit all of that was kind of a parlor trick. And then once we got him in the boat, so to speak, we wanted to put him in an environment that he, like any subject, where he was comfortable.
And for those who haven't seen the film, we did the hero interviews with him out on the beach was kind of a memorable visual component of the film, directly addressing the camera in an environment that somehow just subconsciously made sense for him visually, but also made him comfortable. And so it was kind of a win-win really. I mean, it was on message.
for this kid who kind of grew up is the ultimate Southern California story. as it relates to football at least. And, and yet also made him feel at ease. John, like, do you, do you know out there, like we've got to get Todd to make this project or would you have made it without him just using archival footage? You wouldn't have made it. was no way we were going to deal with that. The, the, the, get was getting him. mean, the, eye opener for
ESPN was wait, you found him, you know, and, and yeah, and he's in. And, so it was, that was the asset that we came to the table with was that we were delivering Rinovich from obscurity, know? All right. And then you dealt with his dad too, who's one of a kind in the high school sports world. Yeah. We talk about crazy dads all the time. He's kind of the OG crazy dad. yeah.
What did you, yeah, tell me about that. What was it like being with that guy? because he seemed menacing on camera almost. Did you feel that? I mean, we, can say this now. you know, when we did our interview with him, I mean, it was a measure of just how rough it must've been for Todd to see any glimmer of tenderness, but just because to get him to admit that he loved his son took like 90 minutes.
I mean, it was like pulling teeth. It's not that he didn't love him. Obviously, you don't you know, he spent more time with his son than most parents by a large measure. And like it wasn't just that his son was a project. It was also the course that he loved him. But expressing that was not something that came naturally to him. And he definitely had walls up that would needed to be penetrated. And it took a while to get there.
so I can, and, he, and this is according to Todd, a much softer version with old age than the one that he dealt with. So, yeah, more of is definitely, yeah, even, you know, Todd's story in general, is kind of the canary in the coal mine for, what's transpired with youth athletics over the course of a couple of generations now where the rush to kind of accelerate.
development and the money spent, know, what was once exotic is now commonplace, you know, and in the eighties, Todd's story was a curiosity. Now there's a whole cottage industry that is designed to kind of do a lot of the same things that Marv was doing that was being scoffed at at the time. But I think, you know, Marv's over the fact that it was his own son.
kind of crossed some, Cross some lines that, I think are, ill-advised. Absolutely. And I'm to go back to your alma mater of SMU. And you also did the 30 for 30 pony excess on the great run that SMU football had in the early eighties and kind of what you mentioned about Marv where, parents now pay thousands of dollars to get that kind of training. Now everything SMU got the death penalty for is legal. So
What do you, how do you feel as an alum and someone that covered this and lived it? How does that make you feel now? Same with Reggie Bush, like Reggie, you know, it's, I think he's suing the NCAA now for all the hardship they put them through. So this shift that's happened in the past 40 years, what are your thoughts on all this? Well, it's funny. There's a lot of ink being spilled in Dallas about these boosters who now are like the gloves are off.
and so all the things that were once forbidden are now, you know, kind of standard operating procedure. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I was, grew up in Dallas and, I was, I had a ringside seat for everything growing up there, watching it, the scandal unfold in high school. And then I became a freshman the first year back from the death penalty, when they had.
No scholarships, all walk-ons. They had Forrest Greg, who was the coach, but they still kind of out of hubris or whatever, they still had a schedule that included. Now, again, with everyone, every good player had transferred out and no scholarships coming in, all walk-ons, and they were playing like Lou Holtz's Notre Dame and David Klingler.
and the run and shoot at the University of Houston. I think they lost 95 to 21. And I think our college paper did the math and deduced that if we would have just kneeled the ball three and out, it would have been mathematically impossible for them to have scored 95 points, but we had to actually actively turn the ball over. Right, right. Yeah.
So that's interesting. with back to Marinovich and back to the pony excess, you're, when you get these subjects, right, you as a director and the interview, are you interviewing as well on these John? Are you the one in Todd? Okay. So you've got to a certain skillset to get a guy like Todd Marinovich to want to do this. And then you've got to ask the right questions. You got to ask them in the right tone. Is that something you learn in film school? Do you learn that just through reps? don't know. No.
I, that part,
I don't think it's like a rarefied skill, but at the same time, I don't think it's something that you can teach. You're either I spend probably three hours of preparation for every one hour of interview. And that preparation is not about where the camera goes. It's about like anticipating every deflection, every redirect that can be put forward to kind of
penetrate someone's defenses and get to the spirit, the spirit of the truth. And so with Todd, you know, a good example. So you kind of have to have a keen kind of what do they call it? Like EQ, like emotional IQ, right? And I'm not sure that that's necessarily something you can teach. I think that.
I wouldn't know what to say to someone other than prepare for every possible response, then try and get back to where you suspect the truth lies through a line of questioning. That's a little bit like, you know, don't know if you ever heard the phrase like in life, I think Mike Nichols said like in life, everything is either a negotiation or a seduction. And I think that like interviews are a seduction.
you know, and you kind of got to lead them into a place where they feel comfortable and find the right kind of keys in language that kind of that are a framework that allows you to kind of go make it feel like it's their idea to go in a place that they might not have otherwise wanted to go. In Todd's case, you know, you have a limited amount of money on any production and so you have a limited amount of shoot days for your interviews.
and the, you have one or two choices. You can either go right at the heart of the matter or the most difficult subjects on day one and know that you've got multiple bites at the apple, because you've got, let's say four or five interview days, shoot days to try and get there, but you will run the risk of alienating the subject by like, you're starting right off the bat with the heaviest material or you can.
build trust and then run the risk that you only have one day left to get the goods. And so on the day of the final interview with Todd, where a lot of the best stuff came from, we had a relationship at that point. And he was, he's a very giving, cool dude. And so off camera, we were kind of like in a bro space really. But on camera, of course, it's a different thing, but the kind of like capitalizing on that relationship that we had built.
the day of the final interview that we're going to do out on the beach. was texting him from the production band on my way down to I think it was like Costa Mesa or something like that. Anyway, I was texting him and I said sent this long diatribe that basically essentially said if you're emotionally generous with the audience, they will reciprocate and it will come back to you in waves. And in his case, that very much was the case. And the film did end up becoming.
kind of catalyst for positive change in his life and how he was perceived. And in large measure, that was because of what he was, where he was willing to go and with that authenticity that he was kind of like willing to display. And what's he doing nowadays? If you do, know, I he's living in Southern California and he's painting. So, I don't know if you remember in the film, but like he had long, you know,
He was raised to be a quarterback, but that's not necessarily what he wanted to do. He wanted to be a fine artist, and even in college, he had studied fine art and painting while he was the QB of the Rose Bowl-winning USC Trojans, and just was on a path that seemed kind of foretold for him, and he had no choice about what to do. But when the film was made, again, serendipity,
He was about newly sober, getting his life back, finding the direction that he always thought was the one that he really wanted to pursue. had coinciding with our production, just his first ever art showing downtown LA. So we decided to make that whole thing a centerpiece, a framing mechanism for the film. And because of the exposure that the film gave him, and at the time, 30 for 30 was very much at its height of popularity.
He got more commissions than he can ever get to in his lifetime. And now, you know, was able to kind of pursue what he felt was his true call. That's awesome. That's awesome. That's a great story. from there, you actually, one of your later projects was glory hounds, which you produced, about military dogs in Afghanistan. Tell me how you pivoted to that and what interested you in that story, Well, I love dogs and I was on a plane.
And I saw this ad that was kind of a first some nonprofit that was about finding homes for service animals who had retired and everything. And the war was raging at that time and in Afghanistan. And I just kind of like made this cognitive leap from like that thing to imagining this, the bond that must happen. And like sometimes your imagination outpaces reality, but I started painting this picture in my mind. was this.
movie about like, you know, how soldiers in that in war zone have no outlet whatsoever. They have to front like they're hard all the time. Like any any even this is the survival mechanism and they have no outlet for tenderness. But these guys do because they have this animal and it's you know, they can like privately have these.
tender asides with this thing that must be a very healthy outlet that's a privilege for them that other soldiers or Marines wouldn't have. But that okay, well that could be a cool movie. That's really just the story of a boy and his dog magnified by the insanity of getting shot and the and the intensity of the relationship getting ratcheted up because of that. And so yeah, then we just I started like that was a two a very heavy lift getting
permission to go shoot in a war zone and get the money to do it, getting insured to do it. And it was a little bit of a house of cards getting, you know, on the one hand, the military would want to know that you had a distribution in place because they didn't want to just waste their time entertaining just any Joe with a good idea. They wanted to know that you could execute on the idea. And so they wanted to know you had it.
distributor on the other hand, a distributor wanted to know that you have a commitment of the military. so, threading that needle was a little bit of a trick, but it all worked out and it was definitely the most rewarding thing I've ever done. John, it's dangerous over there filming that. mean, you get a lot of action footage. mean, it's hard to communicate the first impression.
You think, it's a desert, because this part of the part of Afghanistan, we're in the two deadliest provinces in Afghanistan. in particular, this area called the Horn of Panjwai, which is literally the birthplace of the Taliban. know, a lot of it looks arid and you just think it's going to be hot and like a desert, like, you know, Arizona.
The second you got the plane, you're just like hit with this wave of humidity. So it's like this, you know, know, when you, when you're hot, you kind of, it's hard to keep your focus. And then you think about these guys and they're carrying like 30 pounds or 40 pounds of gear, humping it in 110 degrees with 70 % humidity.
and they're supposed to maintain their focus and watch every step because there could be IEDs. You're just like, my God, like you're the biggest enemy in some respects was the climate. But for sure it was scary. the truth of the matter is I was there for a little bit, but I definitely stood on the shoulders of the crew that I put together very deliberately composed.
of people who had either a prior career in the military and now a second career as production people or just were like people who had made a career of being in hotspots around the world as photojournalist type of people who you knew would not lose their sea legs when stuff went down. And to their credit, they maintained their
focus and their composure and came home with some terrific material. So do those dogs when they're when they're retired, they do get into normal civilian families or do they stay with military folks? Do you think? Well, so in the film, initially what the tragedy is, that in and in Vietnam, the dogs were left behind. And so it was a
huge bone of contention with the handlers who had built up this, they were literally left there as like gear, like, you know, in the same way that when you kind of will evacuate a combat zone, you often will just incredibly leave a lot of gear behind. Well, that is what was done with the dogs at that point. And then, you know, over the course of 20 or 30 years, by the time that
Afghanistan conflict rolled around those attitudes and changed and accommodations were made such that like if a soldier, if a canine was being decommissioned from active service, that the handler of that animal had the first right of refusal to adopt it. And in the film, one of the handlers that unfortunately got hit with an IED
in the film and survived around that same time his dog was decommissioned and they were allowed to basically spend the rest of that dog's life together. good, good. Okay. Here's some filmmaking one-on-one questions. What's there between a director and a producer?
my God. Well, I suppose it depends on the context. In documentary filmmaking, a director is responsible for maintaining continuity of vision across the full scope of the production and every decision that
you make kind of radiates from this kind of white hot epicenter of a core values of that particular project. And those reverberations echo out through what decisions that you make in motifs and graphics and liette motifs and scores in how you're going to, you know, the context in which you're going to set interviews. And so it all feels like it's like the project has a cohesive identity. On a TV show often, if it's a series,
An executive producer or a show runner by title is the person who has a lot of those same responsibilities. so it's confusing, but like, you know, I'm doing a doc series right now and I'm the show runner on that doc series. but the responsibilities that I shoulder are the same ones as a director in a doc, a feature doc context.
Gotcha. do you, does it, is one better than the other? is producer credit better than executive producer, better than director? Like, is there a hierarchy in the industry of which one carries more weight or does it matter? Executive producer, it does matter. mean, it's a, it's, there is a hierarchy for sure. it's odd though, because
If you were, if a project was nominated for an Oscar, the producer credit gets the Oscar in a documentary, even though oftentimes an executive producer is often seen as higher on the food chain. It's a, it's a, it's a very amorphous.
And there's no real fixed answer to that other than usually the EP is seen as being more instrumental and having a more global purview for the entire production. Gotcha. If a prep school kid or college kid wants to get into this industry where there's TV, movies, documentaries, production, where do you suggest they start?
well, I only can speak from my own experience, you know, which is, which is there's, do as deep a dive as you can on your own, figuring out what it is that you like. And the more you dig, the more you figure out whether this is a, a lifetime commitment that it, that you're in love with it enough to sustain the hardships.
because it is not easy and there's no fixed, there's no fixed path to get where you want to go. But I would, yeah, I would encourage people to kind of get in the mix. I don't think necessarily film school is the answer. Like going to graduate school is a big expense with no real necessary, no guaranteed return on investment.
getting out into it, is probably, you're better served, you know, spending the years that you have, in your youth, with minimal financial obligations, dedicated to kind of getting into the mix and getting out on this, you know, onto cruise. I would say early on, is definitely harder to do if you're not in New York or LA.
early on getting into the mix is, you know, because the mix is there. You know, the networking opportunities are there. It's not to say that you can't do it. It's just you're the the the the the what do you want to call it? But like the sample size of people in the mix in a different community is going to be smaller.
And, there's going to be less bites at the apple to get a foot in the door. so doesn't mean you have to be there forever. I'm now around the corner from you in Colorado and, I've, I've, I've made the transition to be where I want to be, but it definitely was helpful early on to be there. I mean, yeah. And would you suggest like being a production assistant as a good, foot in the door for someone that does live in an area like that? For sure.
Yeah, absolutely. mean, it's, you know, it's you're doing the jobs that no one wants to do. But if you do them, you know, but at the end of the day, those that role is as indispensable as any role in production. If someone's not doing that job right, the entire production is aware of it. And if you're doing the job in a way that is exemplary, there's everyone on the production knows about it.
And they're all going to remember you. We're good or for ill. And, you can definitely distinguish yourself by doing things that might seem mundane and you'll have a window into the process. This kind of privilege kind of perch to kind of, you know, see how people who are experienced get it done. Yeah. mean, that's a name drop here, but I was, Josie, my wife was directing Kevin Spacey on a set of house of cards one day when they were at its peak.
And she's like, do you want to be the PA for this? And I go, if I can meet Kevin Spacey, sure. This is pre Kevin Spacey, Kevin Spacey. And my job was hocking equipment and getting the wall, wall sandwiches for everybody and hocking it back. when I wasn't working, was roaming around the Oval Office and everywhere on this giant separate house of cards. And then bam, got a photo with Kevin Spacey at end of the day. And it was neat because I...
never seen behind the scenes of like a Hollywood set before and how it just, looks completely different than what you see on TV. And it's just a house of cards almost. So it's fun. It's fun as well. You know? Yeah. And you're in, you know, it is a privileged, even at the lowest, you know, level on the, you know, on the, the ladder, it's still a privileged position. You're on the inside and believe me, there are
legions of people around the world who would give up a lot to have that same opportunity. Yeah, absolutely. John, what's your favorite documentary at all time? okay. One of your top five. I would say, no, mean, my gimme shelter is my favorite documentary. sure. Stones. Kimmy shelter. Like if I had to pick it, it always comes to mind. The moment someone, I mean, it doesn't mean that that's the thing I always want to watch.
Any more than my favorite songs, not necessarily the song that I always want to listen to. And maybe it's not necessarily even just I mean, saying my favorite is seems like limiting, but it is definitely the film that lit the fuse. For sure. me. about regular movie? What are some of your tops? that depends. mean, I like. Anything.
by Kubrick, like, I tend to like, like Barry Lyndon is the kind of the odd choice of the Kubrick films, but it's the, me, it's the kind of sleeper pick and the one that rewards you for your commitment when you watch it, it seems long, but it's kind of got this elliptical structure that kind of comes back to where it started in a way that's very rewarding.
Similarly, Clockwork Orange does the same thing. It kind of comes back in a roundabout way and you're like, shit, we're back here again. did this happen? And that's kind of feels like a master at work because you kind of, should see that coming, but you don't, you know? So I appreciate that. Love it. Well, wrapping up here, is there anything we didn't talk about today that you want to mention about being a filmmaker, getting into documentaries, anything like that?
I mean, I can so much to say, I mean, you know, there's there's other sports projects I've done. It depends on, you know, whether or not those are the things you want to talk about. it's a it's a it's kind of like cheating, making documentaries in the sports space because there's, there's a built in narrative structure already, given the drama. There's a dramatic arc to any sporting event. and so.
That framework is always handy and there for you in a way that it's like there's a chassis there that you can rely on that in a different context, you kind of have to discover, okay, well, what's you know, narrative bark here, but when you've always got this kind of parallel track of whatever the event was in sports that has a beginning, middle and end, it has stakes to it. It's got peak performance in it.
It makes, it makes it fun because you just know that you've got this, the juices there already. It's just kind of, up to you to, you know, kind of push hard enough to get it done. Yeah. mean, every sporting event, John, even kids soccer, if you know, like the context of like, well, this team is doing this and that player is looking to do this and there's a rivalry here and that coach is getting ready to get fired. more context, know, in the Olympics does this great taking a sport, you know, nothing about giving you the backstory.
On a few different of the athletes and now you're suddenly invested. So you're right. I mean, the, the sports landscape there, there are potential projects all over the place. Well, I'm doing this thing right now that is about this thing that, is arguably about, well, there's a bias against it because people it's called e-sports, which is competitive video game playing. And I'm definitely a proxy for the audience that couldn't give a shit about that world. don't play video games. I don't.
You know, I don't, I have, I come at the world from a bias. That's probably generational, like on a generational divide, there's people who, know, maybe 80 % of people who are over 35 and 80 feel like this isn't a real thing. You know, competitive video game playing and 80 % of people under 35 are probably, because they're digital natives are a poised to, maybe receive that idea with, you know,
more accepting point of view, but I came into it kind of as a proxy for that audience that side of the audience that wasn't necessarily a believer and came to realize that, you know, this is like arguably the most marginalized community in sports and that they've been othered. You know, every this thing that they dedicated their life to getting great at has been devalued and dismissed by traditional sports media and
They've now, so this community of people, and also there's this sense like, well, how am I supposed to follow this? I don't even know the rules of the game, but to your point.
You don't know the rules of curling either when you watch the Olympics, right? And so we're doing this project about this thing that is kind of like the Olympics of e-sports or video games where all of the different disciplines are consolidated into one mega event, whether it's Fortnite or Counter-Strike or EAFC, which is like the Madden of soccer.
are all happening at this Olympic style event in Saudi Arabia called the eSports World Cup and getting people to find rooting interest in this world that they know nothing about in these games that they don't know the X's and O's about is about leaning on the same tried and true techniques that people use at the Olympics to kind of build rooting interest by caring about the people who are competing in them and the human interest stories behind the stakes that they have.
And when you start to realize that there's this Ukrainian team who's fighting for more than bragging rights and that they could win $2 million and they do, and they're going to give all that money to the cause. You know, you start to see these parallels with traditional sports like the Olympics, where there are real stakes that are happening against a surprising backdrop. And you can kind of jujitsu people's bias against
this world of e-sports, lack of better word, to your advantage. when they come into it with these biases, and when you flip the script on those assumptions, it actually works to your benefit. yeah, mean, those are, in some respects, there's nothing new under the sun. It's just kind of like where and how you apply them, you know.
Well, you hear that the old woodpecker, you know, evergreen woodpecker. Good timing. Well, John, thanks so much for sharing all this. You know, you're not the normal guest on here, but I wanted to get your perspective since, you know, 30 for 30s are just a must watch. no matter what the sport is or what the story and you shared some great insight on that on production and, appreciate you coming on today and we will link to your, your website, your IMDB page down below. So people want to check out.
anything you've done, highly recommend the Marinovich project. One of the best 30 for 30s out there. It's really prevalent to families and parents pushing their kids and what can potentially come of that. but yeah, thanks so much for coming on the podcast today. We really appreciate it. Hey Cory. I appreciate it, dude. Thank you. Okay. Thanks y'all for tuning in. We'll talk to you next time.