PREP Athletics Basketball Podcast
PREP Athletics Basketball Podcast
Daniel Poneman: Top NIL Agent on Recruitment & Player Fit Episode
Daniel Poneman, one of the most influential agents in college and professional basketball, joins this podcast. Daniel, a Chicago basketball mainstay, got his start as a teenage scout and has since built a reputation as a top NIL and NBA agent, helping hundreds of players navigate the complex journey from high school to college and beyond. In this episode, Daniel shares his unique perspective on player development, the shifting landscape of prep school basketball, and the realities of college recruitment in the NIL era. He offers practical advice for families and players, emphasizing the importance of finding the right fit, focusing on real improvement over hype, and understanding the true value of NIL deals. If you’re looking for direct, actionable insights on how to maximize your prep school basketball experience and make smart decisions about your future, this episode is a must-listen.
#DanielPoneman #NILAgent #PrepSchoolBasketball #CollegeRecruitment #PlayerDevelopment #PREPAthletics #BasketballPathway
💡 Key Topics:
📌 The evolution of prep school basketball and its impact on local talent
📌 The reality of player rankings and exposure in college recruitment
📌 How to find the right college or prep school fit for players
📌 NIL negotiations and understanding player value in today’s market
📌 The Undiscovered Showcase: Helping players find scholarships
📌 The future of college basketball and the role of agents
🏀 About Daniel Poneman:
Daniel Poneman is a top NIL and NBA agent, widely recognized for his deep roots in Chicago basketball and his innovative approach to player representation. He began as a teenage scout and has since helped hundreds of players secure college scholarships through his Undiscovered Showcase. Daniel is known for his direct, honest advice and his commitment to helping players and families navigate the complex world of basketball recruitment and development.
🔗 Connect with Daniel Poneman:
X | https://x.com/danielponeman?lang=en
Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/danielponeman/?hl=en
LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-poneman-a1237920/
X | https://x.com/WEAVE
Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/weave.agency/?hl=en
🔗 Connect with Cory:
Website | https://www.prepathletics.com
Twitter | https://twitter.com/PREP_Athletics
Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/prep.athletics/
Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/PrepAthletics
Email | coryheitz@gmail.com
Phone | 859-317-1166
🔖 Subscribe to the PREP Athletics Podcast:
iTunes | https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/prep-athletics-podcast/id1546265809?uo=4
Spotify | https://open.spotify.com/show/6CAKbXFiIOhoHinzsReYbJ
Amazon | https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/3c37179d-3371-47f9-9d97-fd569e8802a7/prep-athletics-basketball-podcast #AmazonMusic
Cory Heitz (00:00)
Welcome to this week's episode of the PREP Athletics Podcast. I'm proud to have on agent Dan Poneman. Now Dan Poneman has been in the game a long time. In fact, he's the guy that discovered Anthony Davis back in the day, back when he was first in eighth grade and then got reintroduced to him when he was a junior and helped propel him to be the top recruit in the country. he's since run showcase events to help kids get the college scholarships. He is now, ⁓ probably the top college agent in the country.
a top NIL agent in the country. He represents NBA players, international players, college players, and he's put his 10,000 hours in. So we really dig into kind of how he negotiates a deal, how he helps place players at the right fitting college and, and more just interesting stuff. So this is one you will not want to miss. I thought it was a fascinating, fascinating conversation. And if you're looking at hiring an agent, you must listen to this because it is, it is vital information to know, because there are people out there that know what they're doing.
There people out there that have no clue what they're doing and there's a certain way to value, know, what number you go to colleges with as far as how much NIL money you want. So just, just one of the, one of the great conversations we've had in the podcast here. So enjoy my conversation with agent Daniel Poneman.
Cory Heitz (01:35)
Dan, welcome to the podcast.
Dan Poneman (01:37)
Thank you, Cory, it's great to be here.
Cory Heitz (01:39)
Yeah, so tell me where you grew up and what got you into this sport of basketball.
Dan Poneman (01:44)
wow, well that's a whole 45 minute ⁓ origin story in itself. Well, so I grew up in Chicago, suburbs in Evanston, grew up right up by Northwestern. So I was lucky that my era of Chicago basketball was actually before like.
Cory Heitz (01:46)
You
Dan Poneman (02:00)
prep schools really became the center of the high school basketball universe. It's when everyone kind of stayed at their local high schools, right? So when I grew up just in the North suburbs of Chicago, there were a ton of division one players. And then in the city, we had guys like Anthony Davis, Derrick Rose, Sharon Collins in the suburbs by me, John Shire, who's now coach of Duke. These are all guys who grew up in my era and I played basketball. wasn't, I was good enough to be on the team, but not good enough to be a future division one prospect. But I was always obsessed with like the game outside.
the game. Like I loved going to AAU tournaments and while I was inevitably sitting on the bench and not getting in the game, seeing you know who the best players from other towns were and and who was you know guys with big reputations who'd go and see and who were getting recruited and and ⁓ when I was a freshman in high school pre-social media Facebook had just come out.
and it was back before adults were even allowed on Facebook. And I discovered a website that ranked high school basketball players. And I was a freshman and I saw a ranking of the top 20 freshmen in the state.
I couldn't believe that a website run by adults cared about the things we were arguing about in the gym, who was better than who. And I just became obsessed with ⁓ going on message boards and eventually created my own blog with my own rankings of the best players in the state. And that was ⁓ fall of 2005. So we're going on 20 years now since my first high school basketball website that I started. And that was the origins of my career.
Cory Heitz (03:31)
Tell me, but let's talk about two things there. One, those players, Anthony Davis, Derek Rose, John Scheider, if they're playing in 2025, probably none of them are staying at their high schools, right?
Dan Poneman (03:42)
Yeah, well, I mean, it's interesting because again, like, I can't think of one player from my era who left to go to a prep school during high school. There was a couple of guys who didn't get a division one offer senior year went to an East Coast prep school for their post grad year. But every single good player, mean, during my era, I mean, so many things have changed since my era in Illinois, the first ranked player in the state through like the 15th would be high major 16 through 45 would be division one.
And you'd have a hundred guys going D1 or D2 or, you know, high level Juco, know, high level D3. Like we had, I mean, everyone stayed in the competition was insane. You'd be at a, I remember going to the Provisional West holiday tournament and you had,
St. Joe's who had, you know, which is a school who dreams was about, you had Evan Turner going to Ohio state. You had Demetri McCammy going to Illinois. You had diamond stone going to Wisconsin, going against a proviso East in the championship with Jacob Poland, who ended up in Kansas state. We'd have these crazy city matchups. know, Patrick Beverly emerged senior year. He was like not ranked high and he blows up and ends up at Arkansas.
And you don't see that as much anymore. You look at Illinois now and freshmen or sophomore, top ranked players are going either to an East Coast prep school or they're going to a ⁓ Montverde or SoCal Academy or school on the grind session. They're getting recruited early to go to these powerhouse prep schools, which
I think you could say, particularly for kids within Chicago in the city environment where maybe the education isn't as good, there's dangerous elements. It can be good to get out of that environment and focus on basketball school. But it's certainly not great for the city basketball culture that the city championship ain't what it used to be.
Cory Heitz (05:28)
And it seems happening in Boston too, in New York City, right? Like those kids are getting scooped up and it's, know, do you want to play for your local high school team? Sure. Right. But then sometimes the opportunity exposure is so much greater at these prep schools. Like it's, it's almost hard to turn down as well. Right. So I get both sides of this, Dan, but let me ask you this. So you got a lot of families out there that get obsessed with rankings. Right. And this has been happening since I played in high school back in the nineties. And you're someone that actually put those rankings together. What was your criteria and who was number one and who was number 50?
and like how you rank those because you know someone might say hey I'm number 60 but outplay the number three guy shouldn't I be number two give me your justification on how you figured those out back in the day
Dan Poneman (06:09)
Well,
first I'll give you an explanation on rankings and then I'll give you an explanation on why rankings don't actually matter at all.
Cory Heitz (06:14)
Love it.
Dan Poneman (06:15)
As far as rankings away when I was in high school ranking players, you know, I was ranked. was a freshman, sophomore, junior high school ranking, the top 100 players in the state in every class. There's no way I could see all those players. I could see some of them. There's other factors I played in, played into, and some of it was talking to other players, right? Because you have scouts watching for 10 minutes, taking notes, but you have players on their team on other teams who played against them, played with them. I would talk to dudes my age, like, yo, is this guy really that good? But no, he's soft.
Like is he that good? Yeah, like we fear him on the court. I would talk to other players to understand who was really feared, who was really respected, who was overrated, right? Then I would talk to college coaches who watched guys and give their evaluations, talk to other coaches. So I would get, you know, I recognize that I had a good eye, but there were other people who had a good eye and I would talk to people I trusted.
to bring those opinions together to formulate an opinion. Sometimes rankings were impacted by who are you being recruited by and are those offers real? But sometimes I would just go in and watch and just trust my eye. I remember when I first started ranking players, I walked into gym and I saw a kid named Brandon Paul who was ranked like 45th on the other websites and he was just athletic. He had hit a growth spurt, he was cooking everybody and I put him like seventh in the state.
Then Illinois came and watched him. gets, he gets offered. And next thing you know, he's number two in the state. I built a reputation for myself by trusting my gut. Like a lot of people in rankings. We'll move people up incrementally and be afraid to like stamp it and make, have a real strong opinion. And I always wasn't afraid to have strong opinions. And usually I was right. It's not rocket science. It's figuring out who's good at basketball. It's figuring out who's can jump high, compete hard, score baskets, defend. my most famous.
ranking story was, ⁓ I found Anthony Davis when he was in eighth grade and he was like a six foot guard and I ranked him the 35th best eighth grader in the state. And then, I kind of almost forgot about him, because he went to a small school. And then his junior year, I got a tip, hey, there's this kid who's six foot seven, six foot eight, he's growing, you gotta come check it out. And I come watch him in a U tournament, it's the same kid, Anthony that I had ranked in eighth grade.
At the time his only offer was Cleveland State. He had no other scholarship offers. And I watched him dominate this AAU tournament. I remember talking to someone else from a different website who ranked players and he's like, hey, that kid Anthony might be one of the 10 best players in the state. And I'm like, are you crazy? He's the best player I've ever seen. The best player in the gym, the best player in the country. Watch this guy and he's like, you know, hold your horses. Like we just found him. He's, look what he's doing.
⁓ take it out of context of where he was and what the rankings just watch what we're watching today. That's the best high school player I've ever seen. And sure enough, I was right a month later. He was another one player in the country. But the other thing I'll say about rankings is I have parents of, you know, high school underclassmen asked me all the time, how do I get more exposure? How do I get ranked? And it almost annoys me because I'm like, you don't, it doesn't matter. You get better.
There's college coaches, scouts like me, people who run websites. There's a whole economy around discovering who's good. So don't focus on getting discovered. Focus on being good. Focus on improvement. Like if all the energy you waste on exposure, if you spend that on improvement, we will find you. There's too much money and jobs on the line.
Cory Heitz (09:30)
Yeah.
Dan Poneman (09:44)
centered around finding the best players for you not to get discovered. I find players in, I have clients from Iran, Egypt, Lebanon, Bahrain. We find you if you're good enough. So get good enough. If you're not ranked, if you're not getting the exposure by the time you're a senior or you go to prep school, it's because you're not good enough. So get better. Focus on improvement. Focus on development. It's like anything else in life. Um, uh, you can market yourself or you want, but if there's not
real substance behind the marketing, you're marketing a fake product. There's substance. It's like one of my favorite philosophers. Naval talks about the best marketing is a good product.
Cory Heitz (10:25)
Good old Navala, he's got so many good nuggets of wisdom out there. I'm glad you courted him. He's the first time he's been...
Dan Poneman (10:28)
Loving it all. I just sang the whole
podcast to my whole staff and told them they all have to listen to it.
Cory Heitz (10:34)
I keep a notepad next to me when I drive to take notes on podcasts and with him I don't drive and do it because I write too much and just a great thinker. This is the first time he's been mentioned on this podcast so thanks for sharing. Thanks for sharing of all. Is there a player that was just ranked? You don't have to give names here but have you seen a kid that's been ranked like very high and every time you see him you're just like I don't get it. Am I missing something here? Has that happened?
Dan Poneman (10:47)
Thank you.
Oh yeah, yeah, all the time. mean, when I was, you know, I watched less high school basketball now than I ever did. Now I have a staff who kind of monitors that for me. I don't really go to high school events. I wait until they're in college to really evaluate. But when I was young all the time, would, I would see guys and generally those guys who were either a physically developed really young. So they were able to be physically dominant before the people matured or B people who had parents who were really good at marketing.
who are really gonna manipulate it, who get their kids ranked in exposure on the right teams really early. And then eventually they come back down to earth because when you're in high school or prep school or AU.
You have a parent who's good at marketing. They can get you on the right team in front of the right person to make you look good feature, take all the shots. But then you get to the college level. There's none of that. There's there's no manipulation of the system. The proof is in the pudding you to college. And there's guys who were ranked four or five stars all through high school and guys who are nobodies. mean, most of my club, I mean, every player who I've had get drafted that I represented, not only have been a four or five star, I find dudes who no one's ever heard of who have the real stuff.
You know, and I actually like those guys better to represent because they're generally coming from places of humility and place of hard work and like earning it. I even handed everything you're and that's why like international players, honestly, there's a lot of guys who are four or five stars going through the US system are used to being catered to handed to a plotted.
And sometimes when you get too much success too early, you lose that fire that got you there. But if you get to college and no one knows your name and you gotta earn it, that hunger is usually gonna stick.
Cory Heitz (12:36)
Yeah, it's a chip on the shoulder, right? That drives people in that position you just mentioned. So that last thing on ranking. So do college coaches need to see a player ranked to validate him or to like a majority percentage wise, like do college coaches? I mean, all of them sign up for all the scouting services. They see the rankings and whatnot, but what percentage do you see out there that pay attention to that versus what their hand, their contacts tell them or what they see with their own eyes?
Dan Poneman (13:01)
But unfortunately, most college coaches do care about rankings. These are insecure. They're worried about losing their job. They're worried about what people think. you, you know, particularly in the NIL world where there's money being paid now, you're paying a large salary, large NIL payment to a guy who's not ranked high and then they don't succeed. Now you look like an idiot.
Right? Whereas if you pay a lot of money or make an offer to a four or five star guy and they don't succeed, it's like, well, he was ranked really high. Right? So there's, there's a ⁓ level of security, job security and reputational security, making an investment in a highly ranked player, whereas the level of risk in ⁓ a guy who's less known. But what I've seen the coaches who succeed more, who rise the ranks to, ⁓
over to have teams that overachieve are going to trust their eyes and their gut rather than the rankings. Because if you're you're recruiting, I mean, that's what I do, too. I haven't looked at a high school ranking in years.
I don't care what your rank. trust my scouts, right? Cause to me there's more value in finding there. can go to the peach jam and recruit the same five star guy that every other agency is recruiting, but there's some guy in Serbia who's better than him that no one knows about. I'd rather go find him.
Cory Heitz (14:21)
Yeah, and this is fascinating. You mentioned scouts. So walk me through that. Are these specific scouts that work for you that you have a relationship with? How does that work? And walk me through like kids out there that are good in college or also good in high school that want to go to college. Like walk me through the scouting process and what agents like you are looking for, what these scouts might look like, or just any tip for people that just are new to this world.
Dan Poneman (14:45)
Yeah, I I have a different process than other people. Again, like even when I was in high school and I had my scouting service, my philosophy was if everybody else is in the gym, I need to be in another gym. That's how found Anthony Davis. Right. If I'm at the peach jam or I'm at the grind session, whatever the section seven, whatever the big thing is, every scouts there. So I'm not going to find anything new. Everyone seems to be saying, guys, I don't need a scout to call me like, Hey, you know, it was really good. This kid is ranked 19th in the country. Yeah. Everyone knows. Cool.
Cory Heitz (15:13)
Yes.
Dan Poneman (15:15)
So I have scouts on my staff, full-time scouts all around the world who are deployed to, I mean, I, going to the FIBA European under 19 B division championships. Right. I represent Pella Larsson with the heat. Right. One of my scouts found him at the FIBA under 18 B divisions playing for Sweden and some random country in Europe.
Right. And we're like, that kid's better than the five stars over here. Right. But we're trying to find value. We're turning over stones to find value in places that other people aren't looking at. We're looking at junior college. We're looking, you know, cause if, if someone's at Mount Verde or at Mount Verde, Mount Verde, I'm not going to, they're in every single big tournament. I'm not going to find anything there that, that,
Cory Heitz (15:53)
numbered.
Dan Poneman (15:59)
someone else isn't seeing. like, it's like anything. like, it's like investing in a startup, right? If I invest in Facebook, my returns not going to be that high because everyone knows Facebook. But if I find the next app that's going to get sold to Facebook, I'm going to find value. There's going to be more risk in that because it's an unknown commodity, but there's more value in finding something that no one knows about.
Cory Heitz (16:23)
I love it. I love that. And then you tell me this, you didn't come find me, let's say I'm Pell in Sweden or I'm playing in one of these divisions and you find me or one of these guys find me, give me your pitch. Like what does Dan Poneman say when you want to go get a guy as a client? What do you say to them? Like what makes you unique and special?
Dan Poneman (16:42)
Well, you know, it's easy now. Like when I was starting, it was maybe a little harder. Now I have a track record, right? Weave is...
regarded as the top agency in college basketball. We have the most good clients in basketball. We've done the most NIL dollars. We've had the most high major players. We've had the most of our NIL clients go pro. So now it's a pretty easy sell because we're selling a premium product. ⁓ But the reason we got there is because long before NIL,
me and my staff were placing international players or placing high school players, placing JUCO players in college. I've been doing this for 20 years. So whereas other, you know, I represent players in the college space and the pro space, specifically in the college space, know, and I was four years old and other agencies can say these, this is what I've done for three years, right?
But for us and my staff is like, is we've done for 20 years because long before there was money involved, we are in the business of helping of ⁓ placing guys in college. I placed a thousand plus players in college who have many of them succeeded long before and I all started. So I have the longest track record of anyone in the space. I have the most success record of anyone in the space is indisputable. Right. And, and because of that, I've had more reps than anyone in the space. My staff has had more reps, right? have a, I have a 12 person staff. All our guys who have been
in this space for a long, time. So, you know, it's like LeBron has played more NBA games than anyone else in the league. I guess his body wears out. So you can't necessarily say that like the best is yet to come. But for me, it's like, I give the comparison to, to players. say, Hey, if you have played, if you played call of duty every single day for 20 years, 10 hours a day, how good would you be a call of duty? Right? Well, I've played.
basketball agent every single day for 20 years. I'm 33 years old. started when I was 14. It's all I've done for 20 years. I've played this specific game and practiced this specific function of finding the right fit for this player. So I'm going to be the best in the world at it because no one's done it more or better than me.
Cory Heitz (18:47)
I it. I love the confidence. Thanks for sharing that. let's use an example here. Pel Larsson, you find him in Sweden. He decides to take you on as his agent. What then, with all the D1 schools out there, how do you decide which ones you're going to reach out to for him? And now at the NIL piece, how do you know the market value for certain players?
Dan Poneman (19:07)
Well,
when he came over, there wasn't an I'll yet. Right. This is pre NIL. This is again, this is why I was good at NIL because before NIL I was doing this. We found him never knew he'd be an NBA player. He's playing in the B divisions. Right. But he was a good player. We wanted to help place in college because it's what we did. We did for fun. There's no money in it. It's like placing dudes in college. So with him going through that process pre NIL, was first off, cultural fit, understanding the client.
You're from Sweden. What's the culture like? What's your family like? What do you value? Do value education? you, uh, you know, do you need, uh, what type of food do you like? What type of environment do you like? Right? So first finding out culturally, where are you going to thrive as an individual? Okay. Then
level of play, right? Are you good enough to go to Duke? Maybe. But do need to start there? Or are you going to potentially get buried enough to transfer down? So for Pella, the schools we looked at, he had a lot of offers. The schools we looked at were high mid-majors and low high majors who really valued him, where he would contribute right away. They had good academics and a good cultural environment that would be an easier transition from Sweden.
So his final four initially were Utah, Stanford, San Francisco, Santa Barbara. The coach of San Francisco then was Todd Golden, who's now just won the championship in Florida. ⁓ So he ends up choosing, ⁓ Stanford took someone else before his visit. So he takes three visits and he ends up going to Utah.
He was all packed 12 freshmen team, his freshman year, and then his coach got fired, Larry Kostoyak. But at that point he had used Utah as a stepping stone to showcase himself. Right? Had he gone to Arkansas, maybe he would have been benched and would have had to transfer down. But because he used Utah as a place who is a high level, but really valued him and there's a big role for him. He was all freshmen team. And then his offers coming out the next time were Kansas, Arizona, Creighton Xavier.
which I handpicked all those spots as good basketball programs that had systems that fit him, coaches that understood him, good cultures, coaches of job security. Because the second time around when you're transferring.
You don't, you don't want to transfer a second time. You want one transfer tops. So you have three years left. want to go to job security. Tommy Lloyd had just gotten the job at, uh, at Arizona and he was building a team. He's coming from Gonzaga, which had a lot of experience with, uh, international players. And he was building a really international team at Gonzaga at Arizona with that style of play that suited him. Whereas like Kansas was his other one, his final two excellent program, but much more built on American players. rarely had international players who succeeded. So know, Kansas is an incredible offer. love Bill.
self Arizona made more sense for a number of reasons. He went there. He thrived and he got drafted. So it is there isn't like a specific formula for each player. It's understanding the individual understanding the programs and understanding the fit. It's like being it's like being a matchmaker. All right, you understand the man. You understand the woman. You understand the strengths and the weaknesses what annoys them, you know what they both want out of life and you bring them together and you hope it leads to a marriage.
Cory Heitz (22:01)
Yep.
Dan Poneman (22:17)
Right. And, and, and again, that just comes from reps of doing this in some 14 and understanding what's going to work.
Cory Heitz (22:24)
Yeah, same thing in the prep school business too, right? That's how I help families is all the stuff you just mentioned to narrow down the prep school world to an equivalent to Kansas and Arizona for kids. So I love that. Since he didn't deal with NIL, now let's use an example of like in this current market, you've got a player, you know, it's pretty good. Colleges won them.
Is it through experience now that you kind of know the value of certain players or how do you approach the NIL piece when negotiating with colleges? Because say Pell is coming out today, it's a different conversation potentially with the finances, right? So walk me through what you tell families in that front.
Dan Poneman (22:59)
Well, there's two different elements to this. There's the initial freshman deal, and then there's, you going to transfer or renegotiate your current spot? Like, I hate to be the bogeyman here and say it, everyone's probably going to transfer once, right? It's rare that someone stays in the same place for four years, right? Because wherever you start at, if you overachieve, then you're going to move up or you're going to get drafted.
If you under achieve, you're going to move down. The only people who stay at the same place for years is if you played just perfectly average enough to stay there all four years, right? There's always, you know, move up and down, which is just the nature of the game. I didn't make the rules. It's what it is. I'm calling it what it is. Right. So the initial freshman deal, I try to get families to not look at money. We're looking at.
not where do want to be next year, but where do you want to be four years from now? Right? Is the NBA the goal is playing overseas? Is it just making as much profit over four years? Is it having the best experience? But it's let's look at the arc of four years and make a plan based on four years, not just how much money are they paying me next year. Right? If you're just focused on profit, your freshman year, you're walking yourself down a path. They're going to have to reverse, right?
So first, look at a plan for four years. Where do we want to end up? Okay. And then understand what we value. Right. I asked clients to rank, uh, the things that matter. Most of them, how important is academics, geography, style of play, player development, winning, right? Some guys need to win. Some guys want to have good stats on a bad team. Right. Rank the things that matter to you.
And then once we start getting offers, let's run those offers through the filter of the things that you've already set out that matter. And that way I can keep you honest. If you say, hey, playing time matters most and winning doesn't matter. and then Kansas calls like, Hey, you said playing time mattered more. Don't, don't walk yourself into a situation where you can be a backup. Right. So
The financial conversation, how do I price clients? It's really just intuitive. It's just I've done more and I'll deal with anybody else on the planet. I understand the marketplace. I understand the value. know. And you know, I have a reputation. You know, some college coaches, you ask them, let's say I'm a bulldog, let's say I'm a bully. Reality is I'm not. I'm not a mean guy. I don't bully people. I don't overprice guys. I just understand deeply exactly what someone's value is. And I get it.
Cory Heitz (25:07)
Yeah.
Dan Poneman (25:26)
And if you don't want to pay that and that's what the value is, I'm not a bully. You just can't afford it. I'll find, ⁓ I'll find someone that, that, is a good program that does have those resources. ⁓ one thing you have to avoid as an agent, which I see with amateur agents all the time is you think this guy's worth 700,000. So you go around saying his value is 700,000, but really it's 350. And now you've just priced out all these places that could have been a good fit. And they moved on to someone else where you've overshot your value.
Cory Heitz (25:31)
Yeah.
Dan Poneman (25:54)
You really have to understand what that value is before you start talking numbers because you can screw a kid over and negotiate your way out of opportunity by not understanding what the market truly is. And the market changes all the time with all the changing rules. There's a
You know, like this year, the Juco players all got, were seniors all got an extra year. That affected the market because there's hundreds of more players who would have been graduating, who are not staying in school. Now there's freshmen that are losing those spots. Those guys are more valued than the younger players and the changes of value of the entire marketplace. Right? So you have to understand the entire landscape before you start talking numbers. You can't just say that player is good. He's worth a million dollars. That's not how it works.
Cory Heitz (26:18)
Right.
I love this and you've put in the 10,000 hours in this and like, if you know this, you know, just, just from your experience, you can see a guy and be like, I know the number for him. I know the approximate number for him. I know the value for him just through reps. So this is something I'm to get into now is in the NBA, which you're an agent for them, there's a standard commission that players pay to agents, right? It's all set up. written down, but that's not the case with agents for NIL deals, right?
So what should players look for when talking to an agent? know, obviously you need to figure out their track record, like you just mentioned the experience, but what should players look for commission wise and what are you seeing out there?
Dan Poneman (27:14)
I mean, the commission should look for should vary by the agent, right? Because like my philosophy with the commission is whatever you're charging, you better be increasing the value of the deal by that number, right? If you charge 1%, you better get them 2 % more. If you charge 50%, you better get them 52 % more. Your commission should be covered.
by the amount more that you're getting that player, right? Like you shouldn't be, uh, extractive. You should be additive, right? So whatever I'm charging, I'm trying to get a player, uh, five times more, three times more than whatever my commission is that they feel like, wow, I'm not losing money. I'm actually adding money, uh, by bringing this person onto my team. It's the same thing as when you sell a house, you pay what? 6 % to the, to the agent. Well, if they can sell your house for 15 % more.
Cory Heitz (27:37)
Interesting.
Dan Poneman (28:06)
great. But if you're paying them 6 % and they're getting you the same price, you just lost 6%. Right? So when evaluating an agent, different agents, ⁓ mean, there's some agents who could lose you money because they don't know what they're doing. Right? So it's really hard to say what percentage should you look for because there's such a varied landscape of good and bad agents. Like
There are a few agents in this space that I could be like, those dudes are killers. Like, I like that guy. compete day in and day out, and I respect for my contemporaries. And there some guys that are grifters and are hucksters. just, like the comparison I made recently is like, there's some people like me and my contemporaries who...
I've been through medical school and we're performing career surgery. And we can charge a premium because we're going to make sure you get out of there alive. And there's some people who watch the ER on TV and we're like, I can pick up a scalpel and do this. And they're going to, they're going to, they're going to cut your ACL and you're going to be cooked.
So just make sure you're whatever they're charging, just make sure you're hiring a professional who's been doing this a long time who knows what they're doing, who has the experience, who has a track record, who has the referrals and make sure that you're putting your career in good hands.
Cory Heitz (29:25)
I love that. Where do you see the NIL space in five years?
Dan Poneman (29:30)
Well, it's funny we call it NIL. It's kind of like tissues. call them all Kleenex. It's like a brand name now, right? Because it started as NIL, but now it's shifting towards pay for play, right? Where do I see the college basketball? And it's funny, they call me an NIL agent. I'm a basketball agent, right? I represent basketball players, whether in college, they're pro, they're overseas, they're in the NBA, represent basketball players, okay? Where's the college basketball landscape gonna be in five years?
a little more stable, hopefully, right? I think the dollars will keep going up. I think there's an appetite for.
⁓ obviously people love college basketball. watch the NCAA tournaments. One of the most watched sporting events in the world every year. There's an appetite for it. Women's basketball is getting more popular. ⁓ college football is, is, you know, ⁓ a phenomenon, you know, it's, ⁓ people aren't losing interest in college sports because of the money. Like, you know, what I would say is, you know, why do people care more about college sports and pro sports? Because I didn't attend the Chicago Bulls. Right.
I'm not, if Chicago Bulls beat the Indiana Pacers, that doesn't, isn't a reflection of my own identity because I did not attend that team. But if I went to Illinois and they beat Indiana, then I'm better than you that week. Right. And people have a lot of emotional identity tied up in college sports. So that fandom, that craziness isn't going away.
Right. And it's just about how does the market stabilize? How do we make it so there are more guardrails and ground rules? And it's challenging because in the NBA we have the league, I the players association and they collectively bargain. work together to find what's fair.
And then say the players aren't employees. is no union. is no players association. So the NCA can't be the jury judge and executioner. So now they're going to us courts to, to, to litigate different things. And it's challenging to create guard rails because the NCA is job is to look out for the institutions. And that sometimes conflicts with what's best for the players. So I don't really know how this stabilizes or how those guard rails get put in place, but hopefully five years from now, the money is the same. The fandom is the same.
the frenzy for ⁓ watching the games is the same, but there's just more stability in the marketplace.
Cory Heitz (31:45)
Gotcha, gotcha. Now you were in the undiscovered showcase and you've been doing that for a little while now tell us about that and why you started it.
Dan Poneman (31:54)
Yeah, so I started the undiscovered showcase. So undiscovered showcase, I'll tell you what it is and then how I started it. It is a annual camp in Chicago for every senior in high school who's finished their senior season and doesn't have a college to go to.
So I bring in 150 to 250, up to 300 high school seniors from Chicago and some outside of Chicago who are in April of their senior year, have finished their year and don't have a college to go to. And then I bring in junior colleges, division twos, division threes, NIIs, all non-D1 schools. It's not a live period event. It's essentially a matchmaking event to help.
players find schools and schools find players. So of that 200 players in a given year that they played scrimmages in front of the coaches, we'll get 50 plus kids scholarships to go to college for free. So to me, none of those kids are expected to be pros. None of these kids are making big NIL money. This is about finding scholarships for kids who need it. Because it started when I was a senior in high school 17 years ago. I was running my website and I wanted a way to make money. I thought, okay, I know players, I know coaches.
What if I charged $75 for the players and $50 for the coaches and I got 100 players and 50 coaches in the camp, I can make some money. Right. was 18 years old, wanted to make some cash. And then I found all the good players I was inviting. Didn't have them $75. They didn't even ride to the event. So I'd say, okay, you could play for free. You could play for free. You don't have to pay. You don't have to pay. So I run this great event. I have all these coaches and players and I lost $2,000.
And I like, okay, well, I lost money, but I helped 25 kids get scholarships and these two scholarships worth $100,000. I just did 2.5 million in scholarships, but I paid two grand for it. Okay, how do I do this in a way that's more sustainable? So I turned it into a nonprofit. Every year I raise money.
Cory Heitz (33:33)
Mm-hmm.
Dan Poneman (33:43)
I have wonderful donors and, and I've never had like a big title sponsor. It's always just like local donors, 500 bucks here, a thousand bucks here, 2000 bucks here to put the money together. And now for 17 straight years, we get them jerseys, we pay for food. have, you know, educational programming. have NBA players come and speak. We have beautiful gyms across Chicago and every year we just, it's a tradition. get the best. Like there's some coaches who've come 17 straight years and they know I can come with five open roster spots in my Juco.
I was going be 200 of the best kids in Chicago and I can offer 20 of them and I'm going to fill up my roster. Right. And it's just a way of helping guys get to school. And none of these guys are likely to be pros. We've got a couple guys end up overseas after, know, Juco transfer D1. ⁓ But this is about getting guys into college, getting guys who graduated. And then what's cool about like this year's showcase, there was a handful of coaches there recruiting for colleges, but played in the showcase, gotten a scholarship, graduated college.
Gone back started coaching now their college coaches and now they're recruiting more kids from the showcase So it's creating positive ecosystem of reinvestment, right? We've also brought undiscovered. So mean in 17 years you probably on 700 kids scholarships 100 probably 100 million plus in scholarships and never kids never had to pay a dollar, right?
Cory Heitz (34:55)
It's awesome.
Dan Poneman (35:05)
Now we've also started bringing that show on the road. did undiscovered England this year. Did in London. We're doing undiscovered Ireland this year. We've done undiscovered Tanzania. We've done it in Trinidad. So now we're bringing the show on the road and bringing it to different countries, which is the same concept. Hey, anybody who wants to play college ball, isn't signed, doesn't have, hasn't gotten exposures and with a big club, come out to our tryout. And if you're good, we'll find you, we'll find you a spot.
Cory Heitz (35:33)
I love that. And I can see just you telling us how fulfilling that is for you.
Dan Poneman (35:37)
That's dope. And we started doing this before NIL. We did a camp in Tanzania seven years ago. And there's one kid in the camp, Atiki Atiki, who, there's no NIL. We're not thinking there's any profitability. It's just like a six, seven skinny kid from a village in Tanzania. And we thought he was good. We got him a prep school scholarship in Canada. And then he went to BYU and then he just graduated from New Mexico. He's married. His wife is pregnant with his first child.
He got his degree from New Mexico and he actually made a great amount of NIO money because NIO came about while he was in college and now he'll play pro next year and probably in Spain or France. And that's actually the first client I represent from one of our camps.
Cory Heitz (36:22)
That's awesome, it came full circle. Alright, tell us about slam dunk champion Mack McClung. Like, special kid, viral sensation. Tell us a little bit more behind the scenes about Mack.
Dan Poneman (36:24)
Mm-hmm.
Oh, Max, he's awesome. He's a superstar. It's been a really fun ride. You know, when I left my last company before I started, we've, um, I left a big agency to start off my own and Mac was one of the few clients that rode with me to my new venture and bet on me. Um, and he was an unknown, not unknown, but he was a G League guy. uh, you know, I just left my last company and I was starting from scratch again. And I got the call one day, uh, from Mac, like,
Well, I think it was first on the NBA players association of the league and then Mac and they're like, Hey, would Mac compete in the dunk contest? I'm like, he's in the, he's in the G league. I thought you'd be an NBA like, okay, we're going to make this exception for him. So, you know, three months after leaving my last company and starting over on this new venture, here I am sitting courtside watching one of my best friends when the slam dunk contest and
You know, Mac is a person who consistently bet on himself and was really deep in his self belief. And as was I, know, Mac, the year before he won that dunk contest, that first dunk contest, he had an offer in China for $1.4 million. And he turned it down to play in the G League. And at the company I was at at the time,
I had other agents over like, are you crazy? Turn down $1.4 million. Say, Hey, if he wants to play in the NBA and he wants to bet on himself, I'm gonna support my dude. Then I left that company to bet on myself and just like he bet on himself. So here I am guy who bet on himself, starting his own company. And here's Mac who turned down 1.4 million to bet on himself. I'm watching him get perfect 50s courtside at the dunk contest and ⁓
It was just, know, I'm a deeply religious spiritual man. And it's just like those signs from God, you call them God winks, right? Where it's like, you do the right thing. You bet on yourself. You, you, you live in the flow of, of kind of the energy. You let the universe tell you what's next for you and you follow that flow. And then sometimes you get rewarded with a little God wink, like, Hey, you're on the right path. And I appreciate math for, um, all these done for my story.
Cory Heitz (38:50)
Yeah, I mean, this is such great insight you're providing here to listeners of the podcast here that don't know as much about this world. So thanks for sharing that all. We're going to finish up with some quick hitters. All right. What's the best live performance you've ever seen basketball wise? Like, was there just a game or performance for a guy just like as much ball as you've seen that just stood above everybody else?
Dan Poneman (39:14)
I mean, I think naturally I'm going to lend towards when I was in high school, right? Like when I was still young and wide-eyed, right? Seeing performances that seem larger than life. Now I'm jaded, right? But I remember my sophomore year of high school, the first time I saw Derrick Rose live and it was at Chicago State. He was playing in a Chicago public school tournament. I had heard about this guy. I'd never seen him.
I remember watching one play where there's a fast break for the other team and he thought he had a wide open layup and Derek was at the other rim and he in three steps coasted across the floor and pinned the layup on the glass like a Spider-Man or something.
And I was like, did this guy come from? He's incredible. And watching him dominate that game without ever like really changing gears. He always played with this pace of like slightly like a cat, like the slowness and coolness, but he would attack when he needed to. just, it never got sped up. It was unbelievable. ⁓ And then that, that a few years later, there's a high school player named Jeremy Richmond, who is a player of year, McDonald's All-American, went to Illinois, played at Waukegan High School.
I remember that dude would just block a shot, catch the block, lead the break, dump, block a shot, catch a block, lead the break, assist. And just watching a player dominate on both ends. And that's some of the magic of non-prep school, local high school is just seeing this dude with the packed gym of all the fans just going crazy for the local kid just dominating the school next door. those are the memories that stick with me when I was young that made me really fall in love with this game.
Cory Heitz (40:55)
Yeah, that's great. What about your favorite movie?
Dan Poneman (40:59)
My movie shot in the dark, my documentary. So I made shot in the dark with a couple buddies from 2012 to 2018. It came out on Fox. It was a documentary about Chicago or high school, Coach Lou Adams. ⁓ We followed a high school basketball team in Chicago for sophomore through senior year for those guys and through college and just kind of told the story of Chicago and the climate at the time and basketball and.
Cory Heitz (41:01)
Tell us about that.
Dan Poneman (41:29)
the city itself through the eyes of two young players, Ty Quang and Marquis Pryor. It's a passion project for me and my friends. We ended up getting Chance the Rapper and Dwayne Wade as executive producers and ⁓ making that movie was transformative for me. it also to me, making that movie showed me and showed others. It's like, don't have to put yourself in a box. Like for me, I was known as a basketball scout and I took three years off to make a movie and people thought I was crazy. But this universe is abundant. We're all
creative vessels for the universal energy that wants to flow through us. You don't have to ⁓ confine yourself into saying I'm this or I'm that. Like I was a scout and I'm an agent. I make movies, I make shows, I sing songs and I dance, I meditate, I do yoga, I teach and I learn and you don't have to put yourself in a box of like this is what I am. I'm
I'm a basketball agent. No, I'm a guy and agent is one thing that I do, but I'm a teacher and I'm a learner and I'm liver and I'm a prayer. And this movie was kind of my, um, F you to anybody who tried to put me in a box. It's like, I'm gonna make a movie too. I'm gonna do something else that surprises you. And it's not about me. It's about God. It's that I can't be contained. I'm a vessel and creative energy flows through me and I'll never stop letting that happen.
Cory Heitz (42:47)
Love it. What are your hobbies when you're not doing this?
Dan Poneman (42:52)
I love to read. I'm a voracious reader. If I had all the time in the world, I'd read three hours a day. I just, can't read enough. It's like, uh, it's, it's, saw it me the other day that it was like, we don't, we don't appreciate enough that we have strips of tree with, with ink on it. And it makes you hallucinate and go to different worlds. just read, read the pages and stories come alive. I love reading. I love music. Um, I traveled to Costa Rica twice a year.
Cory Heitz (43:13)
Right.
Dan Poneman (43:21)
I'm very deep in my Jewish practice, my spirituality. do yoga, I meditate, I go for walks, I appreciate plants. I'm kind of a hippie, dippy dude, and it's kind of to what you'd think an agent would be, but I actually think my spiritual practice helps you be a better agent, because ultimately as an agent, you're not just helping players get paid, you're a guide for a career and a life. If you're just helping a get paid, you're just picking what number is higher than the other number, which is easy to do. If you're actually going to help someone get
someone's life and career, have to understand what they want out of life and what their purpose is and help them find that purpose. So the spiritual work I do and the religious work I do and the reading I do and the meditating I do helps me be a better agent, a better guide and understanding the levity and responsibility of ⁓ I'm not just helping someone get paid, I'm helping them figure out their life path and I'm a guide for them. And ⁓ that's really what my life is, is playing the basketball agent game and ⁓ listening to God and hearing them tell me what to do next.
Cory Heitz (44:20)
Alright, last question. If everything goes as planned and obviously you've been a spiritual guy, I know you probably take things one day at a time, but if things work out exactly what you want to, what does your life look like in 10 years?
Dan Poneman (44:37)
You know, one of my favorite sayings is like, you make plans and God laughs. Right? You don't know. I didn't know I would be here. Nothing I've done has been planned. It's all been, I mean, even we've, when I left my last company, I had a plan to have a small little agency and have 10 clients and have a quiet life. And next thing you know, we're the biggest thing in college basketball. I didn't plan any of that. I just kind of like let the energy flow through me. So
I hope that in 10 years, Weave is thriving and helping tons of players all over the world, not just NBA guys, not just college guys, but I want to grow undiscovered and grow Weave to a full ecosystem of helping as many people as possible. And hopefully I'm working a little less hard. I work extremely hard. ⁓
a labor of love, but I hope in 10 years I can have a family. uh, you know, right now I work so hard and my players are my, are my family, my, my employees, my teammates are my family. So hopefully in 10 years, I have some young kids. I've got a wife. I have a little more free time and weave is thriving, but I don't need to be as, uh, you know, hands on the controller as I am now. And, uh, hopefully I'm writing some books. Hopefully I'm, I'm, I'm, uh, leading some retreats and just kind of like.
I've been on an interesting path and I've learned a lot and I'm still learning and learning and hopefully at a certain point that learning shifts to teaching.
Cory Heitz (45:55)
Love it. Is there anything you want to discuss or talk about here before we end that we didn't get to?
Dan Poneman (46:03)
No, think we're good. Thank you to my whole staff and my team and ⁓ all of our clients and all the great people in my life on this path have made it all possible. And thank you to you, Cory.
Cory Heitz (46:06)
All right. All right.
Yeah, Dan, thanks for coming on. Dan Poneman, head of Weave Agency, basketball agent for college players, international and professional. And thanks for joining us again on the Prep Athletics podcast. And if you enjoyed this, be sure to subscribe on all the major podcasting platforms. Follow us on YouTube where we have bonus content that comes up all the time. If you've got any questions on prep school basketball, to prepathletics.com. reach out or I get back to everybody that reaches out.
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